With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

originally posted by Mycroft
You get sucked into thinking if you just point out where he's wrong, how he's twisting logic, and how he's being hypocritical in simple enough terms that he’ll have to acknowledge and deal with it and become a rational person.

But that assumes his goal in the conversation is to exchange ideas. It’s not. His goal is only to abuse you and keep it going as long as possible. You have to understand when he’s reading your words he’s not thinking, "What does Art mean by this? What in my behavior made Art say this?" No, he’s thinking, "How can I turn this to more abuse on Art or Israelis?"
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Same old same old. Claims without support. Sylvia strikes again. never mind we're here for you.
 
Where does he come from?

My uncle's sister married a Jewish guy from Jordan
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A Jewish guy from Jordan?

No Jews lived in Transjordan in 1946 (when it became an independent state), as a result of Winston Churchill's 1921 decision in favor of "preserving [the] Arab character" of Transjordan and the resulting British policy forbidding Jews from settling there.
This policy was ratified — after the emirate became a kingdom — by Jordan's law no. 6, sect. 3, on April 3, 1954, and reactivated in law no. 7, sect. 2, on April 1, 1963. It states that any person may become a citizen of Jordan unless he is a Jew. So, this story of yours about a Jewish guy from Jordan is quite unusual.


Regarding my statement, I must admit that the Law in Jordan currently does not indicate the death penalty as punishment for sales of land to Jews, but de facto, land is not sold to Jews, and I know of no Jewish communites in Jordan at this time. You're welcome to show us anything that even tangenitally offers proof of what you are claiming about a relative marrying a Jordanian Jew, Kimiko.

(BTW, by definition, the "uncle's sister" would be either your mother or your aunt).


  • In 1973, Jordan made land sales to Israelis a crime punishable by death and from 1973-97 about 170 people were sentenced by Jordanian courts to death in absentia.

    In 1973, under the direct instructions of King Hussein, the government of Jordan passed the "Law for Preventing the Sale of Immoveable Property to the Enemy" with the "enemy" defined in Article 2 as:

    ... any man or judicial body [corporation] of Israeli citizenship living in Israel or acting on its behalf.

    Under Article 4 of this law any Jordanian citizen who sold land in Jordan or the West Bank to the "enemy" faced the death penalty and forfeiture of all his property (moveable and immoveable) to the state:

    (A) The sale of immoveable property against the provisions of this law constitutes a crime against state security and well being, punishable by death, and the confiscation of all the culprit's immoveable and moveable possessions.
    (B) If the crime is committed by a judicial body the punishment will be exacted from the persons who committed the crimes on behalf of this judicial body, and the judicial body will have its registration cancelled.

    In addition, under Article 3 the sale of land to any alien (ie., someone who is either non- Jordanian or non-Arab) without permission from the Council of Ministers became a security offense, again punishable by death.

    According to PA Attorney General Khaled Al-Qidreh, 172 people had been sentenced to death under this law (Palestine Report, 6 June 1997). Amnesty International reported that as of 1988 many of the convictions were in absentia and there had been no executions (Jordan: Human Rights Protections After the State of Emergency, Amnesty International, 1990).

    In 1995, following the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, the Jordanian Parliament repealed the 1973 law which threatened those selling land to Jews with death. In its place milder statutes were adopted that still effectively bar Israelis/Jews from purchasing or leasing land in Jordan.
 
webfusion said:
You're welcome to show us anything that even tangenitally offers proof of what you are claiming about a relative marrying a Jordanian Jew, Kimiko.

(BTW, by definition, the "uncle's sister" would be either your mother or your aunt).
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BTW, my uncle married my aunt, my mom's younger sister, so no, his sister is neither my aunt nor my mother. I'm not sure what I could post that would be appropriate considering it isn't my personal information that I'd be spreading to the world. I don't even have physical proof he's either Jewish or from Jordan, but considering the information was from family, I have no reason to doubt it. I may ask for clarification for my own personal reasons now though. You don't have to believe it since it is anecdotal.

edited to add: Ok, so his parents were Americans, but he was born in Jordan and grew up there. I guess that would explain how he's Jewish if there are no Jewish communities.
 
zenith-nadir said:
If Israel was a dictatorship I could buy your "enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism". But since I have been there and because it is a democracy I cannot accept that accusation. Arabs own businesses beside jewish businesses beside christian businesses. Nobody has to sit "at the back of the bus" or use "arab-only" toilets.

Arabs are second class citizens due to the founding principles of the state of Israel.


Sure there are some Israelis who are discriminatory against arabs, why? Because Arabs have been trying to kill Israelis since the turn of the century. Thousands of them have been trying to destroy Israel since the 50's. The arab nations ran all the jews out on a rail with just the clothes on their backs in the 40's and 50's. Hundreds of Arabs have blown up Israeli businesses/buses/restaurants. So there is some genuine hard feelings there the fool. Once you actually accept that all that aggression has had a detrimental effect on how Arabs are viewed by Israelis then we shall have made some progress here today. It's kinda like how Islam is viewed because of AL Queda's actions around the world, well take that current world-view of Islam and times it by FIFTY YEARS.

Sure there is inequality in Israel the fool, there is inequality in every democratic country. Israel's special problem is that it is a democracy who's government has a jewish majority. The majority and minority cannot agree on a constitution whereby everyone is equal under the law. It's a simple as that. Hell even in the USA there is inequality, do you really think OJ would have walked if he was just a garbage man?

Sure there is racism in Israel. There is racism in Britain, France, America, Australia, Canada... racism is not specific to Israel.

You, like many, hold Israel up to a different set of standards the fool. Arab aggresssion has had a toll. The toll is the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank - the result of a war - and mistrust between Arabs and Jews - the result of 50 years of combat. This manifests itself as the inequality, discrimination and racism you are talking about. But there is not a global Israeli policy to be racist, discriminatory or make people unequal. That is just a great sound bite commonly used to put Israel up to a different set of standards as you commonly do.

Yes I hold Israel to a different set of standards because Israel sets itself different levels of citizenship based on your religion. Can you tell me of other countries that do this? I hold them to this standard too...It is despicable. There is racism in every country in the world but one thing the second class citizens of America (for example) have is the ability to have racist laws struck down due to constitutional protections. Australia's second class citizens are also protected by our sytems. The systems are in place to provide equality to all, not to ensure inequality.. Israel will never have constitutional protection of Arabs because Israel does not want them protected. Israel needs a free hand to enact whatever measures are required to supresss the non jewish populations of the future to keep them below the level where they can become a politically influential force.


Your claim that the only reason there is inequality in Israel is due to understandable hatred from jewish individuals is very interesting.....Have you forgotten why israel was founded? The special position of Jews and the inferior position of Non Jews is the whole point.....As I have heard many times...what is the point of Israel if Jews are not in charge? Sounds to me to be pretty much the same as whats the point of South Africa if whites are not in charge.
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shooting at schoolkids

"I have posted the words of IDF soldiers. Are you saying they are liars?"

First, according to testimony in open court, yes, they are indeed liars. The trial of the IDF officer is a matter of public record. The soldiers lied and that has been brought forward in the defense of the officer.



Secondly, the death of Nine-year-old (or 10-year-old, depending on the report) Raghda al-Assar while she was sitting at her school desk, September 23, 2004, is almost certainly a fabrication of the events. The IDF was not aiming at her school, and was just involved in a serious firefight with armed combatants in the proximity.
Some stray bullets penetrated the school, and they might have been Palestinian bullets, for all the evidence.

Another classic case, a few months later, was that of
Nuran Dib Jan. 31, 2005. All the media reported that IDF shot her. But despite the lie, what really happened?
It has been investigated in detail and the resulting findings showed that a bullet came straight down out of the sky, after being fired in the air by Palestinians who had shot their Kalishnikovs wildly nearby in celebration of the Haj.

In fact, the Palestinians subsequently arrested the man responsible:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1107228084937


However, google the incidents, and in general, the stories are circulated of cold-blooded murders of schoolkids by Israeli snipers! Over and over it is repeated, until the lie becomes truth.

How about another story of IDF shooting some schoolkids in cold blood:
http://judicial-inc.biz/School_shooting.htm

E.J. -- Do you believe this story?

You are a sucker.
 
not very important, Kimiko

OK, now I understand the relationship of your uncle's sister, and our seeing the whole Jordanian Jew evidence is not really that critical to our discussion. I can assure you, as an American Jew, if he declares that status when he comes to take possession of his property, he'll run into some issues with that land in Jordan, same as if he tried to buy land openly as a Jew in Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, etc.

It just ain't allowed, kimiko.
He is "hiding" behind his American passport, while his name is not obviously a Jewish one. Is that a valid scenario, based on what you know?
 
Re: shooting at schoolkids

webfusion said:
Secondly, the death of Nine-year-old (or 10-year-old, depending on the report) Raghda al-Assar while she was sitting at her school desk, September 23, 2004, is almost certainly a fabrication of the events. The IDF was not aiming at her school, and was just involved in a serious firefight with armed combatants in the proximity.
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Yes, but any time the IDF finds themselves in the middle of a firefight near a school, they're supposed to just lay down their weapons and allow themselves to be killed. To do otherwise would be "disregard" for human life. One Palestinian child's life is worth hundreds of Israeli soldiers.
:rolleyes:
 
webfusion said:
He is "hiding" behind his American passport, while his name is not obviously a Jewish one. Is that a valid scenario, based on what you know?
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I don't think this should be pursued as a tangent; if you'd like to explore the meanings of identity being "hidden" versus being "advertised" then it should go in a new thread.
 
Well the "ceasefire" just got a wee bit more complicated for Abbas;

Who's the Palestinian president? - May. 15, 2005
RAMALLAH - Jerusalem Post - The PLO executive committee's recent decision to declare Mahmoud Abbas as President of the State of Palestine has enraged veteran PLO leader Farouk Kaddoumi, who has dismissed the move as illegal and unacceptable.

Kaddoumi, who is based in Tunis, said in a message he sent to many PLO and Fatah leaders in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that the executive committee did not have the authority to relay the powers of the president to Abbas after the death of Yasser Arafat. He said that only the Palestine National Council (the PLO's parliament-in-exile) was entitled to make such a decision.

The Palestine National Council, which met in Algiers in 1988, elected Arafat as President of the State of Palestine and Kaddoumi, who serves as head of the PLO's political department, as foreign minister.

Kaddoumi noted that the Algiers conference had also announced the establishment of a Palestinian state in exile. "How can a state exist in exile while its president is located inside the occupied territories?" he asked. "This is in violation of our internal regulations."

A senior aid to Abbas told The Jerusalem Post that Kaddoumi was trying to discredit Abbas by inciting against him. He claimed that Kadoumi was apparently receiving funds from Iran and some Arab countries.

"I've been the foreign minister of Palestine for 30 years. He, (Abbas), was appointed without my knowledge," he complained.

(emphasis mine)
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Ouch, my head hurts....now PLO representatives in exile are claiming to be the Palestinian President and foreign minister. Poor Abbas, he inherited a nightmare from Ara-fraud...;)
 
originally posted by Webfusion
"I have posted the words of IDF soldiers. Are you saying they are liars?"

First, according to testimony in open court, yes, they are indeed liars. The trial of the IDF officer is a matter of public record. The soldiers lied and that has been brought forward in the defense of the officer.
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Can you provide a link to the court procedings? Did they admit they lied or was that an assertion of the defence? It appears therefore that is we take your claim as true then the words of at least some IDF soldiers appears to be suspect. Was any reason given for why they lied?
The IDF was not aiming at her school, and was just involved in a serious firefight with armed combatants in the proximity.
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If the IDF were not aiming at the school how did their bullet get into the classroom and is the BBC wrong in their claim? If so how do you know?

In fact, the Palestinians subsequently arrested the man responsible:
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I don't believe I have ever quoted that case. In contrast to your claim the link states that a suspect was being questioned. In my country you are innocent until proven guilty. What happened to him? In my country you are innocent until proven guilty. As I have stated already I believe that anyone who fires into a school commits a crime against humanity, wherever they come from.
How about another story of IDF shooting some schoolkids in cold blood:
http://judicial-inc.biz/School_shooting.htm

E.J. -- Do you believe this story?

You are a sucker:
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I have never heard or quoted that story and as with one you brought up above you have jumped to conclusions before I have even considered it. I have never used the St Louis Post Gazette as a source for any factual information and given that the report seems remarkably long on claims but remarkably light on facts I see no reason to do so at any time in the future. What is the truth in this case?
 
some answers

EJ --- I would have thought you could google the public record of the trial of Captain "R" in a few seconds, less time than it took you to ask me for further links and details. Sometimes all this 'you claimed, so you need to show the proof' stuff is just too lame. What ever happened to people using their own brains and checking things for themselves?


"Was any reason given for why they lied?"
(about the circumstances surrounding the shooting death of 13-year-old Iman al-Hams)

Yes, according to the legal representative of the accused:

Capt. R's lawyer, Yoav Manni, claimed that the two witnesses had sought to mount a 'vendetta' against his client (a Druze).

A military judge ordered the release from detention of the officer after two witnesses at his military trial revealed that they have deliberately lied in their first testimony.
Aljazeera
February 7, 2005
 
Troops Kill Palestinian After Attack

JERUSALEM - Israeli troops killed a Palestinian Friday after militants fired missiles at a Jewish settlement in the
Gaza Strip in the third consecutive day of violence hampering efforts to salvage a shaky truce.

The army said three militants fired missiles, mortars and assault rifles from an abandoned building near the Gaza settlement of Kfar Darom. One of the militants was killed in an ensuing gunbattle with troops while two others escaped.

Israel threatened harsh retaliation for the latest attacks and warned a cease-fire reached in February at the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik was in danger of collapse.

The Islamic group Hamas said it carried out the attack jointly with the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades — a militant group linked to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' ruling
Fatah party — and the Gaza-based Popular Resistance Committees. Hamas said the attack was in retaliation for Israeli strikes.
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

So it's not just lone gunmen breaking the truce, this is coordinated between competing factions.

So this is what a Palestinian cease-fire looks like?
 
Mycroft said:
So it's not just lone gunmen breaking the truce, this is coordinated between competing factions.
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The ultimate irony of the "ceasefire" lie is Fateh is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. It's leader is none other than President Mahmoud Abbas, AKA Abu Mazen.

IMAGE HERE
Masked Palestinian militants of the Popular Resistance Committees, a militia linked to the Fatah movement, perform a military exercise in the streets during a rally in Gaza City, Friday May 20, 2005. (courtesy of AP)

IMAGE HERE
A boy holds a machinegun as masked Palestinian militants of the Popular Resistance Committees, a militia linked to the Fatah movement, march in the streets during a rally in Gaza City, Friday May 20, 2005. (courtesy of AP)

IMAGE HERE
Palestinian children watch as masked militants of the Popular Resistance Committees, a militia linked to the Fatah movement, march in the streets during a rally in Gaza City, Friday May 20, 2005. (courtesy of AP)

(emphasis all mine)

Ceasefire? With ceasefires like this the Palestinians don't really need wars...;)
 
originally posted by webfusion
EJ --- I would have thought you could google the public record of the trial of Captain "R" in a few seconds, less time than it took you to ask me for further links and details. Sometimes all this 'you claimed, so you need to show the proof' stuff is just too lame. What ever happened to people using their own brains and checking things for themselves?
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Whatever happened to people supporting their own claims? It is your claim, not mine after all. Why refuse to supply a simple link if it is so easy?
Yes, according to the legal representative of the accused:

Capt. R's lawyer, Yoav Manni, claimed that the two witnesses had sought to mount a 'vendetta' against his client (a Druze).

A military judge ordered the release from detention of the officer after two witnesses at his military trial revealed that they have deliberately lied in their first testimony.
Aljazeera
February 7, 2005
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Taking this at face value it confirms that at least some IDF soldiers have deliberately lied about the deaths of Palestinian children.

I understand that the captain stated
'On the tape, the company commander then “clarifies” why he killed Iman: “This is commander. Anything that’s mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it’s a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over.”'

Can this truly monstrous statement be true?
 
claims and more claims

EJ, when I feel that a supporting link is necessary or vital to the discussion, I provide one. In the meantime, all I see you doing is complaining and sniping in the forums about people here failing to back up their "claims", despite the evidence and clear references to well-known realities. You seem to have a serious issue with people making statements of facts that are essentially not in dispute to begin with.

"The moon is 238857 miles away"

E.J. Armstrong:
"WHAT? Can you provide a link to prove that claim?"

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/103984main_moon1.gif
 
Re: claims and more claims

webfusion said:
EJ, when I feel that a supporting link is necessary or vital to the discussion, I provide one. In the meantime, all I see you doing is complaining and sniping in the forums about people here failing to back up their "claims", despite the evidence and clear references to well-known realities. You seem to have a serious issue with people making statements of facts that are essentially not in dispute to begin with.

"The moon is 238857 miles away"

E.J. Armstrong:
"WHAT? Can you provide a link to prove that claim?"

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/103984main_moon1.gif
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Some of us ignore E.J. for that sort of behavior. Actually, most of us ignore him for that sort of behavior.

I don't want to tell you what to do or anything, I'm just saying ignoring him works pretty well.

Just in case you want to try something different on that front.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050522/ts_nm/mideast_bomber_dc


Israelis arrest teenage suicide bomber: army

NABLUS, West Bank (Reuters) - Israeli soldiers arrested a Palestinian teenager with a bomb belt tied around his waist at a checkpoint near the West Bank city of Nablus on Sunday, the army said.

Troops manning the Hawara checkpoint near Nablus became suspicious of a Palestinian teenager passing through on Sunday evening, an army spokeswoman said.

"The teenager was asked to lift up his shirt and it revealed a bomb belt containing two pipe bombs tied around his waist," she said.

...

The army spokeswoman said it was the 14th time in the past two months that a Palestinian teenager had attempted to detonate a bomb or smuggle arms and explosives through a military checkpoint despite a de facto truce declared in February.
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Wow, the 14th time in the last two months. This during a cease fire?

It wasn't very long ago that a child suicide-bomber was something new and shocking. I guess now that the line has been crossed, it's old stuff, hardly worth a headline anymore.

Still, you would think that there being so many of them during a cease fire would get a little more attention.
 
Re: Re: claims and more claims

Mycroft said:
Some of us ignore E.J. for that sort of behavior. Actually, most of us ignore him for that sort of behavior.

I don't want to tell you what to do or anything, I'm just saying ignoring him works pretty well.

Just in case you want to try something different on that front.
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Good advice. Trust me on this one. Trust Mycroft. Sometimes you just have to ask "what's the point?"
 
zenith-nadir said:
Ceasefire? With ceasefires like this the Palestinians don't really need wars...;)
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funny thing is the people actually there seem to think its holding fairly well...There has been some aggression on both sides, each blaming the other for starting it....I'm not sure what you see as your role in all this with all your efforts to talk the ceasefire down. Do you want to see an end to the cease fire and just get on with the fighting again...is that it ZN?
 
Mycroft said:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050522/ts_nm/mideast_bomber_dc




Wow, the 14th time in the last two months. This during a cease fire?

It wasn't very long ago that a child suicide-bomber was something new and shocking. I guess now that the line has been crossed, it's old stuff, hardly worth a headline anymore.

Still, you would think that there being so many of them during a cease fire would get a little more attention.
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You don't wonder why so many teenagers are volunteering? Why does a teenager want to end his life. My tip is it's got nothing to do with virgins.
 
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