With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Mephisto]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Men of Action, Men of Intellect

This isn't a think tank and our purpose here isn't to solve problems. There is a purpose to the first amendment and it isn't about practical problem solving. Any speech anywhere for any reason is of value. Full Stop. Period. End of story. Should the people here stop pointing fingers and be productive? Hey, count me in. I no longer take part of such discussions the way I used to. I have come to the conclusion that there is little to be gained.

Taking your ball and leaving and accusing others of wasting their time IS both pompous and arrogant. Now, we could debate that but then what would be the point? I concede that I have often done the same as you are now.

You're absolutely right, and thank you for acknowledging that you've also done it. I guess the frustrations of hearing an argument without end bothered me. And you're also right about the "think tank." Most of us are amateur philosophers and I sometimes forget that this forum is, at most, a forum of mental entertainment/exercise.

I'm still learning.

Mephisto

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Men of Action, Men of Intellect

You're absolutely right, and thank you for acknowledging that you've also done it. I guess the frustrations of hearing an argument without end bothered me. And you're also right about the "think tank." Most of us are amateur philosophers and I sometimes forget that this forum is, at most, a forum of mental entertainment/exercise.

I'm still learning.

Mephisto

Cool and BTW, I welcome any future notice of my next flight of superior fancy in advance. And I can assure you that it will come, soon. No matter how I try I can't seem to help myself.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You have to treat everyone equally under the law, both domestic and international where applicable. I submit that is not happening in Israel and Arab countries at present.

Sounds great. One problem, Israel is home to the three "great" religions. While I am not religious, billions of people are, and the ultra religious public - jews, muslims and christians in Israel - feel the court has no right to rule in matters they feel are questions of religious law. Due to Israel's democratic nature with a jewish majority it has been unable to come up with a legislated consensus on a constitution whereby everyone in Israel is equal under the law.

As to why Arabs of a different caste are not equal in muslim countries and discriminated against I am unable to reason. It makes no sense.

If that policy is fairly and consistently carried out, support for extremists on both sides will shrink and decent people on both sides will feel reassured that the government will support them and they will not need resort to extremists

One thing about radicals such as Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas even Al Queda...they don't want to compromise. You either accept their "way-of-life" or you are the enemy. Look at Iraq E. J. you think all those suicide bombers give a rats ass about their fellow muslims they are blowing up? Nope, they want to impose their will onto them, just like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa want to impose their will on Israelis.

This however is not an overnight process and it will be attacked by men of ill will from every side including those for whom peace is anathema. Administrations have to be strong in standing up to men of ill will and reasonable people have to be prepared to name the men of ill will fearlessly and openly.

The part about the middle east conflict that really saddens me the most is that I know the Palestinians have better and brighter to offer. For thirty years several different Israeli Prime Ministers and several world leaders tried to reason with Arafat and his henchmen. They all failed to force him to stop the "extremists" because he sold out the Palestinians for greed and power.

I have given this opinion seriously and with good intent based on my own experiences in growing up in a terrorised land. If you choose not to accept it so be it. It does not and never will mean that I support terrorism wherever it occurs, whether from an arab individual, group or country or a christian individual, group or country or a jewish individual, group or country etc.

I abhor all terrorism. This includes individual, group and state terrorism.

The way to stop - if I may borrow your colloquialism - "Israeli" state terror (sic) is for the jihadist paramilitary groups stop chanting "A million martyrs to Jerusalem" and blowing themselves up on buses and in restaurants in Israel. It's the key to stopping the IDF.

 

[Art Vandelay]

And your response to my points is....?

Abuse.

Is your argument so bereft of its own merits that it needs to be supported by abuse.

Sadly it does seem so.

Is your argument so bereft of merit that you must whine about "abuse" when someone points out your use of repitition in place of substantive debate? Do you dispute that you do, in fact, repeat the same thing over and over again? YOU are the one being abusive. You are abusing my patience, by expecting me to respond to points that I have already answered. By lying about my position, then posting stupid excuses like "well, you haven't denied it". By calling me a liar when I criticize your position. By badgering me with nonsense question like "Who is lying- IDF or IDF?" By posting three different instances of Israeli "terrorism", and posting "evidence" for them, but not saying what that evidence is, which of the three accusations it supports, or how it does so.

 

[The Fool]

Due to Israel's democratic nature with a jewish majority it has been unable to come up with a legislated consensus on a constitution whereby everyone in Israel is equal under the law.

Throughout history Jewish people have insisted on equality under the law. They have fought and died for this principle and justifiable expressed outrage when it is denied. Except in Israel, Zionists have enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism in israel. Just as numerous other Middle east regimes have set up cosy arrangements for the benefits of thier particulat sect.

Can you not see the double standard? This discrimination is plain simple racism and you condemn it wherever it occurs in the middle east with one exception.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I don't know why, but I'm going to try once again to get you to listen to me.

Shooting at schools is an affront to decency and shows a disregard for the lives of children.

You either need to post proof that the IDF does this, or apologize for spreading antisemitic propaganda. Posting lies about Israelis is absolutely unacceptable, and shows that you have no concern for the truth.

reported the words of the Israeli soldiers as reported by the BBC.

Did the Isreali soldiers say that their answer to terrorism is to murder Palestinian children? YES OR NO?

My posts are based on evidence from one of the most reputable news companies in the world

And once against you completely missed the point of my statement. THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR ASSUMPTIONS ARE BASED ON EVIDENCE DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ASSUMPTIONS. There is a difference between that which you ACTUALLY WITNESSED, and that which YOU DEDUCE. Posting a bunch of "evidence" does nothing to move this from the latter to the former.

Where did I say it was an official policy?

You said that it is their "answer". That means that it is their official policy. If the IDF merely has a tendecy to murder people, rather than an official policy, then that means that it is not an "answer".

I believe my post accurately represents the choice made by specific Israeli soldiers to shoot at schools.

You did not say that it was the answer of "specific Israeli soldiers" to murder children. You said that it was the answer of ISRAEL AS A WHOLE. Stop trying to weasel out of your claims.

It is the chosen answer of those soldiers.

Saying that someone does something and saying that it is their "answer" are two completely different statements.

Who else forced them to pull their triggers?

Whether they fired their weapons accidently, and whether they hit children accidently are completely different issues, and it is a tribute to your incredible dishonesty that you would try to obfuscate this disctinction.

Then please supply [evidence for?] your claim that these cases happened accidently.

I have already pointed out that as the person who is making the claim, you are the one with the burden of proof. Your asking me to repeat myself shows a large degree of disrespect to me. How am I supposed to prove a negative?

The soldiers admitted to shooting into the school.

First of all, I have seen no such quote. Second, YOU DID NOT CLAIM THAT THE SHOT "INTO" THE SCHOOL. YOU SAID THAT THEY MURDERED CHILDREN. This is a pathetic attempt to confuse me into forgetting what your actual claim was.

I accurately reported that the IDF have killed children in schools with a disregard to human life. That amounts to murder.

Not only have you NOT provided any evidence that this is so, it does NOT amount to murder, it amounts to manslaughter. Yet another example of you trying to twist language to suit you. If you wished to advance the claim that they "kill with disregard for life", you should have said so from the beginning, rather than using the word "murder", then weaselling out later.

Once agin you seem to have failed to actually read the links I quoted when the IDF stated 'The Israelis said they returned fire after coming under mortar attack.' in relation to the child being shot.

THAT'S your evidence?!? Remember, your claim was they murdered a child at a school. That quote says absolutely nothing about a child, a school, or murder. If there was more to this that actually established that they shot towards a school and hit a child, you should have included it.
Furthermore, it completely demolishes your claim. If they were under fire, then it was self defense, which shows that it is not murder. The fact that you would have the IDF sit around and get killed just to avoid the possibility of hitting a child shows just how little you care about Jewish lives, and the fact that you blame the IDF, rather the Palestinians who instigated the incident, shows just how warped your sense of morality is. And finally, to say that someone fired "at" a school means that the school is the intended target. But your quote shows that the militants, not the school, were the intended targets.

Who denies what exactly?

You're too lazy to follow the thread, so you want me to do your work for you?

I have also posted where the IDF must be lying about the murder of a girl.

Inconsistencies are not the same as lies, and individual IDF members lying is not the same as the IDF as a whole lying. And finally, so what? The original claim was that Israel's answer to terrorism is murder, not that the IDF lies.

Defending themselves against what exactly - maurading houses, ten year old girls in school uniform carrying school books, olive trees, pregnant women in labour?

You seriously don't know what Israeli needs to defend themselves against? You seriously have not heard about Israelis being murdered by Palestinians? Or are just being intentionally obtuse?

Are you suggesting that collectively punishing entire group of innocent peopel is a defense against something.

There is a difference between collective punishment as a goal, and collective punishment as an unavoidable side effect of another goal, but considering your behavior in this thread, you will probably not being able to grasp the distinction.

It is not a lie it is a statement of fact.

Then support it. Show me one example in which the IDF intentionally shot a child at a school. Not where they had "disregard", but where they intentionally shot.

What lie exactly are you talking about?

That I consider Palestinans and terrorists to be synomynous.

You can no longer say that you have not been provided with an alternative.

I most certainly can, and YOU can no longer honestly claim that it is an alternative, because I have already told you why it does not qualify.

Then provide at least some evidence why you infer my ideas are idiotic.

If you cannot figure out for yourself why the idea that terrorism can be stopped by simply leaving Palestinians alone is idiotic, then I don't think I can help you.

What this demonstrates is your inability to accurately reflect my views.

No, it quite clearly echoes your views. Instead of presenting an alternative plan to stop terrorism, you simply suggest that they stop fighting terrorism. The analogy of stopping medical errors by closing hospitals is quite apt.

Your attempt to demonise me by falsely climing I hate Israelis... Once again as you have demonstrated so often in this thread, like Mycroft you have made something up.

What a hypocrite you are. I am not the one making something up, YOU are. I never said that you hate Israelis, I said that you are a HATEMONGERER. Not all hatemongerers actually hate, just as not all fishmongerers actually fish.

This demonstrates an chillingly inhuman attitude towards innocent Palestinian children.

Is it "chillingly inhuman" to recognize that it is an inescapable fact of life that children will suffer for the choices of their parents? Should we not shoot militants, because that would leave innocent children orphaned? Would you consider those children to be "punished" by the IDF?

Are you saying that Sharon does not collectively punish an entire group by bulldozing the homes of innocent children?

My understanding is that as far as the present tense is concerned, Israel does not engage in collective punishment by bulldozing houses. Do you have conflicting information?

You chose to put the words - innocent children - into quotes. That was your choice.

So if I choose to post something, that gives you the right to make ridiculous misinterpretations? You chose to say that Sharon is a terrorist. I guess I have the right to say that you think Israel was behind 9/11.

I submit this demonstartes extemely clearly your despicable attitude to innocent Palestinian children.

Yet another example of your hypocrisy. You, in complete disrespect for my time, post the same thing over and over again. When I point this out, you scream "abuse!" Yet you have no problem calling my attitide "despicable". I guess abuse is only a problem when it's directed towards you.

When you put things in quotes and attrubute them to me please quote them accurately and don't lie.

I didn't attribute them to you. I said that it was a lame excuse, I did not say that they were your exact words. As you say, the words are there for everyone to see. Anyone who wanted your actual words can read them; what I put in quotes was what I believe your actual position is. I have made it quite clear to anyone with any sense at all what my position is, so the idea that I have not denied it is ridiculous. My characterization of your position is based on the facts, rather than what you claim your position is.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Can you not see the double standard? This discrimination is plain simple racism and you condemn it wherever it occurs in the middle east with one exception.

Yes, when people treat other people differently because of their race, I consider that to be racism. But when they treat them differently because they're trying to kill them, I consider that to be common sense. What a double standard that is.


Oh, and are you ever going to respond to my post regarding the killing combatants issue?

 

[webfusion]

Zionists have enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism in israel.

Enshrined?
It's not enshirined in the Parliament.
Nor in the Courts.
Also, there are no such enshrined principles in the health care realm, in the motor vehicle realm, in educational institutions.
In housing and real estate, the law prohibits such discrimination (unlike Jordan, where selling a property to a Jew is punishable by death).

Israel may tend to tilt in favor of Jewish inhabitants because it is ostensibly a Jewish State, but there is nothing 'enshrined' about the treatment of the minorities, be they Moslems, Christians, Ba'Hai, Druse, Bedouin, Circassians, Armenians, Samaritans or whomever. Minorities should have it so good elsewhere!

 

[The Fool]

Yes, when people treat other people differently because of their race, I consider that to be racism. But when they treat them differently because they're trying to kill them, I consider that to be common sense. What a double standard that is.


All non Jews are treated differently, are you suggesting that all non jews are treated differently because they are trying to kill people?


Oh, and are you ever going to respond to my post regarding the killing combatants issue?

Not sure which post you are talking about...Have you been talking about shooting rock throwers again?

 

[The Fool]

Enshrined?
It's not enshirined in the Parliament.
Nor in the Courts.
Also, there are no such enshrined principles in the health care realm, in the motor vehicle realm, in educational institutions.
In housing and real estate, the law prohibits such discrimination (unlike Jordan, where selling a property to a Jew is punishable by death).

Israel may tend to tilt in favor of Jewish inhabitants because it is ostensibly a Jewish State, but there is nothing 'enshrined' about the treatment of the minorities, be they Moslems, Christians, Ba'Hai, Druse, Bedouin, Circassians, Armenians, Samaritans or whomever. Minorities should have it so good elsewhere!

I'm sure you feel your second class citizens are treated better than anyone elses second class citizens but thats not really the point is it...Discrimination on the basis of religion is the foundation of Israel. In my Country the government has no idea what religion you are and doesn't need to know or want to know...I tend to lump governments that do care what religion you are into the creepy category.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't know why, but I'm going to try once again to get you to listen to me.

I betcha a dollar it doesn't work.

Now repeat after me:

"We admit we are powerless over trolls - that our on-line lives have become unmanageable."

You have my sympathies.

You get sucked into thinking if you just point out where he's wrong, how he's twisting logic, and how he's being hypocritical in simple enough terms that he’ll have to acknowledge and deal with it and become a rational person.

But that assumes his goal in the conversation is to exchange ideas. It’s not. His goal is only to abuse you and keep it going as long as possible. You have to understand when he’s reading your words he’s not thinking, "What does Art mean by this? What in my behavior made Art say this?" No, he’s thinking, "How can I turn this to more abuse on Art or Israelis?"

 

[Art Vandelay]

All non Jews are treated differently, are you suggesting that all non jews are treated differently because they are trying to kill people?

You don't seem to be able to make up your mind whether you're talking about racism or religious discrimination.

Not sure which post you are talking about...Have you been talking about shooting rock throwers again?

I was referring to this exchange:

You:

You have previosly stated that you are happy with troops shooting combatants conducting an attack...Do you deny this.

Me:

I never said that I am universally happy with shooting combatants conducting an attack. In fact, I was quite adament that there are conditions in which killing combatants might not be advisable. Do you deny that I said that? I recall that we had a prolonged discussion on this very point, with you ridiculing my postion. And now you are pretending that I never said it? The claim that the proper response an attack is ALWAYS to kill combatants is a claim that you made, and which you are now trying to attribute to me. This is the very sort of disingenuous tactic that was so rampant in that other thread.

 

[kimiko]

Except in Israel, Zionists have enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism in israel.

The only discrimination "enshrined" is the preference for religion, Orthodox Judaism in particular, over secularism in immigration and personal status law. There is institutional discrimination by the government, but it isn't explicit policy that I can see. For example, Arabs receive harsher sentences on average in the courts, like blacks and Hispanics do in the US, but that isn't because there are requirements that they be punished more. I posted some links in the Jewish state/Muslim world thread if you want to see what the US State Dept has on record about human/religious rights in Israel and the occupied territories.

Originally posted by webfusion
(unlike Jordan, where selling a property to a Jew is punishable by death).

I'd like to see something to support that. My uncle's sister married a Jewish guy from Jordan, and they recently bought property there.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Throughout history Jewish people have insisted on equality under the law. They have fought and died for this principle and justifiable expressed outrage when it is denied. Except in Israel, Zionists have enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism in israel. Just as numerous other Middle east regimes have set up cosy arrangements for the benefits of thier particulat sect.

Can you not see the double standard? This discrimination is plain simple racism and you condemn it wherever it occurs in the middle east with one exception.

If Israel was a dictatorship I could buy your "enshrined the principle of inequality, discrimination and racism". But since I have been there and because it is a democracy I cannot accept that accusation. Arabs own businesses beside jewish businesses beside christian businesses. Nobody has to sit "at the back of the bus" or use "arab-only" toilets.

Sure there are some Israelis who are discriminatory against arabs, why? Because Arabs have been trying to kill Israelis since the turn of the century. Thousands of them have been trying to destroy Israel since the 50's. The arab nations ran all the jews out on a rail with just the clothes on their backs in the 40's and 50's. Hundreds of Arabs have blown up Israeli businesses/buses/restaurants. So there is some genuine hard feelings there the fool. Once you actually accept that all that aggression has had a detrimental effect on how Arabs are viewed by Israelis then we shall have made some progress here today. It's kinda like how Islam is viewed because of AL Queda's actions around the world, well take that current world-view of Islam and times it by FIFTY YEARS.

Sure there is inequality in Israel the fool, there is inequality in every democratic country. Israel's special problem is that it is a democracy who's government has a jewish majority. The majority and minority cannot agree on a constitution whereby everyone is equal under the law. It's a simple as that. Hell even in the USA there is inequality, do you really think OJ would have walked if he was just a garbage man?

Sure there is racism in Israel. There is racism in Britain, France, America, Australia, Canada... racism is not specific to Israel.

You, like many, hold Israel up to a different set of standards the fool. Arab aggresssion has had a toll. The toll is the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank - the result of a war - and mistrust between Arabs and Jews - the result of 50 years of combat. This manifests itself as the inequality, discrimination and racism you are talking about. But there is not a global Israeli policy to be racist, discriminatory or make people unequal. That is just a great sound bite commonly used to put Israel up to a different set of standards as you commonly do.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Sounds great. One problem, Israel is home to the three "great" religions. While I am not religious, billions of people are, and the ultra religious public - jews, muslims and christians in Israel - feel the court has no right to rule in matters they feel are questions of religious law. Due to Israel's democratic nature with a jewish majority it has been unable to come up with a legislated consensus on a constitution whereby everyone in Israel is equal under the law.

What matters are christians and muslims claiing that the state should not rule on. I fail to see why this should be so. If so, that is surely a failure of the legislators who are elected by the electorate. Surely a key principle of modern democracies is to treat everyone equally under the law in all the importanat areas of human rights.

As to why Arabs of a different caste are not equal in muslim countries and discriminated against I am unable to reason. It makes no sense.

If that is so then it is unreasonable. Palestinains are vebeibng discriminated against in Israel. That also makes no sense.

One thing about radicals such as Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas even Al Queda...they don't want to compromise. You either accept their "way-of-life" or you are the enemy. Look at Iraq E. J. you think all those suicide bombers give a rats ass about their fellow muslims they are blowing up? Nope, they want to impose their will onto them, just like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa want to impose their will on Israelis.

Yes there are extremists on every side. My point is that governments that want to be seen as decent democraices have to practise what they preach and treat everyone equally. When that is done the support for extremists will tend to decline but the government has to want peace.

The part about the middle east conflict that really saddens me the most is that I know the Palestinians have better and brighter to offer. For thirty years several different Israeli Prime Ministers and several world leaders tried to reason with Arafat and his henchmen. They all failed to force him to stop the "extremists" because he sold out the Palestinians for greed and power.

One could also argue that debate failed to get the givernmenets to stop their illegal activities in expanding onto land they occupy illegally. It is also a shame that Palestinians have not been treated equally. That in my opinion is a major factor in driving people to extremes and that has to change in order to move towards peace.

The way to stop - if I may borrow your colloquialism - "Israeli" state terror (sic) is for the jihadist paramilitary groups stop chanting "A million martyrs to Jerusalem" and blowing themselves up on buses and in restaurants in Israel. It's the key to stopping the IDF.

You seem to fail to see the point. If a government believes in fariness and equality and in stopping terrorism then surely it has to act fairly and treat all people equally and stop terrorising. That is if it truly wants peace.

By the way I have asked you to justify your claims about me. You have failed to do so. I am seriously concerned to know how you believe this helps your argument?

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Art Vandelay
Is your argument so bereft of merit that you must whine about "abuse" when someone points out your use of repitition in place of substantive debate? Do you dispute that you do, in fact, repeat the same thing over and over again? YOU are the one being abusive. You are abusing my patience, by expecting me to respond to points that I have already answered. By lying about my position, then posting stupid excuses like "well, you haven't denied it". By calling me a liar when I criticize your position. By badgering me with nonsense question like "Who is lying- IDF or IDF?" By posting three different instances of Israeli "terrorism", and posting "evidence" for them, but not saying what that evidence is, which of the three accusations it supports, or how it does so.

No. When I use the word abuse I mean abuse. You claimed I lied about you but have failed to support your claim with something difficult like a fact.

I do not call people liars when they criticise my position. I call people liars when they lie. You put these words in quotes with the obvious intent to suggest they they are words of mine "You didn't deny it strenuously enough" I did not use those words as you quoted them.

I have asked you a simple question about the IDF a number of times. What do you do? Do you answer it? No. You call a simple question nonsense. Can I ask what you are doing on a sceptics board? Your response to simple questions is the mark of you as a man.

I have quoted the source of my quotes. I have shown you where to obtain the quotes.

 

[zenith-nadir]

What matters are christians and muslims claiing that the state should not rule on. I fail to see why this should be so. If so, that is surely a failure of the legislators who are elected by the electorate. Surely a key principle of modern democracies is to treat everyone equally under the law in all the importanat areas of human rights.

Israel operates under eleven basic laws they make up proposed general rulings for the yet-to-be-written constitution of the State of Israel. The big problem involves religion, and we know how goofy people get over religion, anyhow... it has proven impossible so far to get the legislators - elected by the electorate - from 14 different parties to all agree on the same words for Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Catholic, and Christian Israelis. We're talking about the cradle of the three great religions here, these guys play hardball.

My point is that governments that want to be seen as decent democraices have to practise what they preach and treat everyone equally.

Show me one government on earth that treats everyone equally, it may say it does but the reality is often much different. Otherwise there would be no reason for human rights organizations or human rights lawers. Israel has been technically at war for over 50 years I'm surprised it treats people as well as it does considering.

When that is done the support for extremists will tend to decline but the government has to want peace.

In some cases that may work. In the case with jihadists - Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, etc - the support for the extremists is because they want to replace Israel not to replace human rights legislation in Israel.

One could also argue that debate failed to get the givernmenets to stop their illegal activities in expanding onto land they occupy illegally. It is also a shame that Palestinians have not been treated equally. That in my opinion is a major factor in driving people to extremes and that has to change in order to move towards peace. You seem to fail to see the point. If a government believes in fariness and equality and in stopping terrorism then surely it has to act fairly and treat all people equally and stop terrorising. That is if it truly wants peace.

The "terror" predates Israel EJ, see: the "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem". The "terror" predates the occupation, see:"Founded in 1964 the PLO"... There were no settlements in Gaza or the West Bank during those 60 years. Israel does not have the power to make a final and lasting peace. Only the Arabs/Palestinians have the power to make that final and lasting peace.

 

[webfusion]

Creepy

TF, the Israelis do employ a National ID Card which clearly spells out "religious affiliation" (horrors!)

There has been some effort in their courts to overturn the requirement, to no avail (however, it has more to do with the orthodox-Jewish definition of "who is a Jew" rather than any attempt to discriminate against Moslems or other non-Jews).

Discrimination is inherent in every society on Earth.
I would say, in complete agreement with ZN, that Israel's minorities do pretty darn well, under the circumstances!

Since 1997, plans have been floated to implement a new, magnetic\RFID card, but so far, that is bogged-down in the details and nothing had been done.
http://www.badil.org/Publications/Article74/1998/25i.htm

Creepy? Yeah. Welcome to Israel. Lots of creepy stuff.
Not a place you would like to live, I'm sure.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Art Vandelay
I don't know why, but I'm going to try once again to get you to listen to me.

I don't know why but I am going to try once again to get you listen to me oh and answer a couple of simple questions.

You either need to post proof that the IDF does this, or apologize for spreading antisemitic propaganda. Posting lies about Israelis is absolutely unacceptable, and shows that you have no concern for the truth.

Ah, the truth comes out at last.

I put it to you squarely and clearly that you are unable to accept any criticism of the IDF without equating it to anti-semitism, even when it is supported by one of the most respected news organisations in the world and by members of the IDF itself.

Your modus operandum is out in the open now. I will not now and never will be demonised by the likes of you or stopped from quoting the IDF itself by using lies to call me an anti-semite. I am calling you directly and publicly a liar. Please quote one word of mine where I have disparaged the Jewish religion in any shape or form. I notice that you have not had the guts to stand by your own claims and show where I am anti the jewish religion. You rargument appears so bereft of support that you have to resort to a monstrous lie to justify them.

Can I just remind you that Israeli is not equal to Jew. There are approximately 19% non-jewish people in Israel. Your attempts to link the cliams of the IDF itself to antisemitism is laughable.

Did the Isreali soldiers say that their answer to terrorism is to murder Palestinian children? YES OR NO?

If you want to make something up then you reply to it yourself. I have pointed out that the IDF soldiers stated that a schoolgirl was shot in the head as she lay on the ground by their commander. The BBC has reported on Palestinian schoolchildren being shot while they sat at school by Israeli soldiers.

And once against you completely missed the point of my statement. THE FACT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR ASSUMPTIONS ARE BASED ON EVIDENCE DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ASSUMPTIONS. There is a difference between that which you ACTUALLY WITNESSED, and that which YOU DEDUCE. Posting a bunch of "evidence" does nothing to move this from the latter to the former.

I have posted the words of IDF soldiers. Are you saying they are liars?

You said that it is their "answer". That means that it is their official policy. If the IDF merely has a tendecy to murder people, rather than an official policy, then that means that it is not an "answer".

No. You made it up. If you want to take issue with your own words feel free but they remains your words not mine.

You did not say that it was the answer of "specific Israeli soldiers" to murder children. You said that it was the answer of ISRAEL AS A WHOLE. Stop trying to weasel out of your claims.

Once again you have made something up. I never stated it related to your invented words. If you say it was my claim at least have the honesty and guts to post where I stated exactly what you claimed. Just once would do. At least support your claims with a fact for once.

Saying that someone does something and saying that it is their "answer" are two completely different statements

Are they in control of what they do or not?

Whether they fired their weapons accidently, and whether they hit children accidently are completely different issues, and it is a tribute to your incredible dishonesty that you would try to obfuscate this disctinction.

You have yet to produce one single piece of evidence to support your inference that all these killing were accidental. Let me take the words of the IDF soldiers who claimed their commander fired at a palestinian schoolchild on the ground. Were they liars?

Firing into a school is a monstrous act, whoever does it.

I have already pointed out that as the person who is making the claim, you are the one with the burden of proof. Your asking me to repeat myself shows a large degree of disrespect to me. How am I supposed to prove a negative?

Au contraire. You are the one claiming it was accidental. I have supported my post with the words of the IDF soldiers thenselves on the web pages of one of the most reputable news organisations in the world. If you want to claim that every single incident was an accident and that the commander of the IDF accidently shot the girl while she lay defenceless on the ground then please support your own claim.

First of all, I have seen no such quote. Second, YOU DID NOT CLAIM THAT THE SHOT "INTO" THE SCHOOL. YOU SAID THAT THEY MURDERED CHILDREN. This is a pathetic attempt to confuse me into forgetting what your actual claim was.

Yes shooting into a school with schoolchildren sitting at their desks shows such a disregard for the human life of children that it is tantamount to murder in my eyes. If you are so confused that you forget what you are debating about can I suggest there is nothing I can do to help you.

Not only have you NOT provided any evidence that this is so, it does NOT amount to murder, it amounts to manslaughter. Yet another example of you trying to twist language to suit you. If you wished to advance the claim that they "kill with disregard for life", you should have said so from the beginning, rather than using the word "murder", then weaselling out later.

I do not twist language. I have provided you with the evidence of the soldiers own words. Who shot the small schoolgirl going to school? Who sprayed her with bullets while she lay defenceless on the ground? Do you believe members' of the IDF own words or not? Shooting into schools shows a complete disregard for the lives of children. I have not weaselled out of calling it murder. Far from it. In my eyes shooting into schools, whoever does it, shows such a disregard for the lives of innocent schoolchildren that it is tantamount to muder in my eyes.

THAT'S your evidence?!? Remember, your claim was they murdered a child at a school. That quote says absolutely nothing about a child, a school, or murder. If there was more to this that actually established that they shot towards a school and hit a child, you should have included it.

If you disagree with the BBC or the IDF please provide your evidence.

Furthermore, it completely demolishes your claim. If they were under fire, then it was self defense, which shows that it is not murder. The fact that you would have the IDF sit around and get killed just to avoid the possibility of hitting a child shows just how little you care about Jewish lives, and the fact that you blame the IDF, rather the Palestinians who instigated the incident, shows just how warped your sense of morality is. And finally, to say that someone fired "at" a school means that the school is the intended target. But your quote shows that the militants, not the school, were the intended targets.

Er no it doesn't. Have you ever held a rifle? The peron who holds the rifle has the choice where to fire it. It doesn't fire by itself. It needs to be pounted and the trigger pressed. Once again you equate Israeli with Jew and try to demonise me by claiming there is a religious element to my observations. As you appear not to have read what I have stated let me remind you that I have stated before. I stated that 'Shooting at children in schools is crime against humanity - whoever does it.' Whoever is exactly what I mean, whoever. I don't rule out anybody therefore your fantasy that I am making a claim against one religion is shown to be a total nonsense. I really don't know how to make it more plain for you because all you seem to want to do is to take out a completely false religious message. You made up the religious message. You should be ashamed of your self but that now seems to be one of your more despicable modus operandi.

You're too lazy to follow the thread, so you want me to do your work for you?

If you don't want to answer simple questions don't.

Inconsistencies are not the same as lies, and individual IDF members lying is not the same as the IDF as a whole lying. And finally, so what? The original claim was that Israel's answer to terrorism is murder, not that the IDF lies.

THat is your claim not mine. You really do seem to be unable to accurately quote anything I say don't you a la Mycroft. I actually stated ' So their answer is murdering schoolchildren.' You can make up as much as you like about that statement but I will always show when you are making it up. Where does it mention Israel's or Israel's official policy or Jews. At least try to be intellectually honest. I have posted a number of instances where innocent children have been killed by IDF soldiers in circumstances that I consider to be murder. Please support your own claims with facts for once instead of inventions of your own a la Mycroft.

You seriously don't know what Israeli needs to defend themselves against? You seriously have not heard about Israelis being murdered by Palestinians? Or are just being intentionally obtuse?

I have heard about Palestinians and Israelis being murdered. Since when did defending against that nrequire bulldozing of the homes of innocent children or forcing pregnant women to lose their babies at checkpoints. It doesn't,.Those are monstrous acts against humanity. But then you haven't answered me as to whether you believe there are any innocent Palestinian children.

There is a difference between collective punishment as a goal, and collective punishment as an unavoidable side effect of another goal, but considering your behavior in this thread, you will probably not being able to grasp the distinction.

Are you now suggesting that the bulldozing of the homes of innocent children is unavoidable? Can I suugest that you don't steer bulldozers into their homes. It really is that simple. Your behaviour on thes thread has consisted of making up things about what I stated, inaccurately representing what I did say and avoiding answering simple questions.
Let me try to ask you a simple question in the hope of an answer this time.
Has the IDF ever done anything wrong? Ever? If so what was it?

Then support it. Show me one example in which the IDF intentionally shot a child at a school. Not where they had "disregard", but where they intentionally shot.

Once again you misquote my claim. My claim is that IDF soldiers shot at children at school. From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3693860.stm 'Nine-year-old Raghda al-Assar died last week after being hit by Israeli fire while sitting at her school desk in the Gaza Strip - the fourth child hit in similar circumstances in 18 months.' I say that anyone shooting at a school is committing a crime against humanity

That I consider Palestinans and terrorists to be synomynous.

After you claimed 'Killing schoolchildren is not their "answer", it's an unavoidable consequence of the Palestinian decision to use them as cover.' I stated 'You seem to be using 'Palestinian' as a synonym for 'terrorist'. ' You did not say that surmise was wrong. You then lied by misquoting what I had said so I asked you the question outright 'Let me ask you a simple question. Are all Palestinians terrorists? Yes or no?' As far as I can see you have avoided that simple question, like so may others.

I most certainly can, and YOU can no longer honestly claim that it is an alternative, because I have already told you why it does not qualify.

No you cannot and it merely demonstrates your utter dishonesty to make such a claim. Stop terrorisng innocent children, stop stealing land, stop assassinating suspects in circumstances where innocent children are guaranteed to be killed. Stop shooting at schools.

If you cannot figure out for yourself why the idea that terrorism can be stopped by simply leaving Palestinians alone is idiotic, then I don't think I can help you.

Once again you have chosen to deliberately misrepresent my views. I have never asked that Palestinians be left alone. That is simply an outright lie. Once again you torch your own claims not mine.
I have requested that Palestinians be treated like Israelis. If an Israeli commits a terrorist act he should be tried under the law. Where have I stated that should not happen to a Palestinian. If an Israeli is seen with a weapon trying to shoot an innocent child then he can be shot in self defence. Where have I ever stated that cannot be applied to a Palestinian? You have been given alternatives so you can no longer claim that you have not. Start treating Palestinians likle Isrealis fairly under the law. How difficult is that? Stop committing crimes against humanity by bulldozing the homes of innocent Palestinians.

No, it quite clearly echoes your views. Instead of presenting an alternative plan to stop terrorism, you simply suggest that they stop fighting terrorism. The analogy of stopping medical errors by closing hospitals is quite apt.

No it is a farce. Where have I ever claimed that Palestinians should not be treated like Israelis under the law. See above section for true analogies and stop making things up. You have been given solutions.

What a hypocrite you are. I am not the one making something up, YOU are. I never said that you hate Israelis, I said that you are a HATEMONGERER. Not all hatemongerers actually hate, just as not all fishmongerers actually fish.

I have demonstrated many occasions where you have made things up. What a liar you are you. You actually claimed 'Your statements have been very short on concern for the children, and long on the hate mongering against the Israelis.' Quite clearly you cannot stand up uplike a man for your own claims. I do not hate Israelis. I hate some of the policies of Sharon. It seems that you are unable to differentiate between the two.

Is it "chillingly inhuman" to recognize that it is an inescapable fact of life that children will suffer for the choices of their parents? Should we not shoot militants, because that would leave innocent children orphaned? Would you consider those children to be "punished" by the IDF?

Your apparent disregard for the lives of innocent children is chillingly inhuman. Are you now cliaming that all the parents of all the murdered children have been guilty of something? If so at least be man enough to provide evidence for your claim for once. I consider your position inhuman.
If anyone shoots children with a disregard for their safety then they are guilty of murder in my eyes.

My understanding is that as far as the present tense is concerned, Israel does not engage in collective punishment by bulldozing houses. Do you have conflicting information?

Conflicting to what exactly as you have provided no evidence for your claim.

So if I choose to post something, that gives you the right to make ridiculous misinterpretations? You chose to say that Sharon is a terrorist. I guess I have the right to say that you think Israel was behind 9/11.

I accurately quoted what you did with the words innocent children. why do you seem to believe that when accurately describe what you did you have the right to lie about me? Is that the true mark of your arguments?

Yet another example of your hypocrisy. You, in complete disrespect for my time, post the same thing over and over again. When I point this out, you scream "abuse!" Yet you have no problem calling my attitide "despicable". I guess abuse is only a problem when it's directed towards you.

Please provide one example where I have done so as you have failed once again to support your claim and given your record of misrepresenting what I have said, I believe I am entitled to ask for evidence.

I didn't attribute them to you. I said that it was a lame excuse, I did not say that they were your exact words. As you say, the words are there for everyone to see. Anyone who wanted your actual words can read them; what I put in quotes was what I believe your actual position is. I have made it quite clear to anyone with any sense at all what my position is, so the idea that I have not denied it is ridiculous. My characterization of your position is based on the facts, rather than what you claim your position is.

So why put them in quotes? It is not normal practice to put in quotes words that you invented and imply they come from another poster. That is mendacious behavior of the sort you seem to delight in.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Ioriginally posted by zenith-nadir
Israel operates under eleven basic laws they make up proposed general rulings for the yet-to-be-written constitution of the State of Israel. The big problem involves religion, and we know how goofy people get over religion, anyhow... it has proven impossible so far to get the legislators - elected by the electorate - from 14 different parties to all agree on the same words for Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Catholic, and Christian Israelis. We're talking about the cradle of the three great religions here, these guys play hardball.

Let me ask you again What matters are Christians and Muslims claimimg the state should not rule on?

Show me one government on earth that treats everyone equally, it may say it does but the reality is often much different. Otherwise there would be no reason for human rights organizations or human rights lawers. Israel has been technically at war for over 50 years I'm surprised it treats people as well as it does considering.

THen this is where we differ. I have told you a number of times now that I come from a terrorised land. I know what it is to have a member of my wider family blown apart and to go to school through bombs. I do not wish the family of the terrorist who blew my uncle up to have their house torn down by bulldozers. That terrorist activity is completely abhorrent to me. I submit that the UK is close to treating everyone equally especially in Northern Ireland where I believe that starting to treat people equally was a cornerstone of the current albeit faulty peace process.

In some cases that may work. In the case with jihadists - Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, etc - the support for the extremists is because they want to replace Israel not to replace human rights legislation in Israel.

The IRA were marginalised by starting to treat everyone equally that is why they sued for peace afterall the years they spent in prsion.

The "terror" predates Israel EJ, see: the "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem". The "terror" predates the occupation, see:"Founded in 1964 the PLO"... There were no settlements in Gaza or the West Bank during those 60 years. Israel does not have the power to make a final and lasting peace. Only the Arabs/Palestinians have the power to make that final and lasting peace.

I am not sure what your links prove. Israel was founded partly on the activities of terror gangs such as the Stern gang. See 'The combined Jewish resistance movement organized illegal immigration and kidnapping of British officials in Palestine and sabotaged the British infrastructure in Palestine. In response Bevin ordered a crackdown on the Haganah and arrested many of its leaders. While the British concentrated their efforts on the Haganah, the Irgun and Lehi carried out terrorist attacks against British forces, the most spectacular of which was the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in July 1946. The latter event led Ben-Gurion to sever his relationship with the Irgun and Lehi.' from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/israel-inde.htm.

Both parties have the power to make peace. Isn't it time to treat everyone equally, stop bulldozing the homes of innocent children and start the process rolling?