originally posted by Art Vandelay
1. You did not post what the IDF actually did, you posted an alleged position of the IDF. Whether the IDF murders children and whether the IDF considers murdering children to be the "answer" are two different issues.
Au contraire. 'The Israelis said they returned fire after coming under mortar attack.' I contend that showing such a regular disregard for the lives of innocent children constitutes a clear position. If they do not want to do it why do it? Did a 'Palestinian' or apparently in your lexicon a 'terrorist' come up and force them to fire towards the school or are their weapons skills so poor that they cannot hit what they aim at?
2. Mycroft did not "invent something the other person did not say", he posted his opinion of what Mephisto's position is, just as you posted your opinion of what the IDF's position is.
What Mycroft actually claimed was 'Which is another way of saying you will apply no standards of behavior to the Palestinian-Arabs and will not object when they target children.' In other words he invented something the other person did not state. Interestingly the other person stated 'No, that's not another way of saying that! Those are YOUR words.' I posted exactly what the IDF did, chose to do, and admitted to doing, unless God almighty is now pulling their triggers for them.
3. You say that the two are different because your statement is based on actuality, yet you have not proven that Mycroft was wrong.
The person about whom Mycroft invented a statement stated that Mycroft was wrong. QED.
4. Your "evidence" is ridiculous. You simply presented examples of people who had been killed, without any evidence that the IDF killed them, or that they had been murdered.
My 'evidence' caomes from one of the most reputable sources of world news, namely the BBC and from Israel sources themselves. If you had read the link you would have noticed that either the commander of a unit or the men are lying when 'The soldiers complained that after the first shots were fired at the girl, the company commander approached her motionless body, fired two shots to her head, and then sprayed her with automatic fire. The commander denies some of the accusations, Haaretz reports. ' I know it is ridiculous to posting the words of IDF soldiers as claimed by IDF soldiers and as reported by the BBC.
Who is lying here the IDF or the IDF?
What?!? YOU'RE the one making the claim, YOU'RE the one with the burden of proof. What evidence do you have that there wasn't any fire from Palestinians?
I have presented the evidence of the Israeli's own words, as reported by the BBC. You appear to be calling Israeli's liars. If you are now trying to claim that the Palestinians shot their own children in these specific cases please provide evidence supporting your allegation.
See, here's the thing. In order for you to say that the IDF has "contempt" for the lives of innocent children, you must, at the very least, show that there is a clear alternative.
The alternative is very clear. Don't assassinate untried people in circumstances that ensure innocent children will be killed. Don't shoot at children in school.
I started a thread to see what people alternatives people think there are, and I don't remember anyone presenting any. In fact, I'm pretty sure that you didn't post at all.
So should I follow every thread you start? I really don't think so. I have just given you an alternative. It wasn't very difficult to arrive at as it is an alternative the decent democracy I live in uses. I commend it to Sharon if he really wants peace.
Seeing as how no other methods of defending themselves have been presented, it seems to me like you really have a problem with Israel defending itself in general, and your alleged concern of "innocent children" is just an excuse.
At least one other alternative has now been presented to you so you can no longer make that silly claim. The principle is to behave like other decent democratic states.
My concern for innocent children is exactly that, a concern for innocent children. You choose to disparage decent sentiments. That is your problem, not mine as it demonstrates a lack of humanity in my opinion.
I have absolutely no problem with Israel defending itself. I come from a terrorised land and know how decent democratic states behave and they do not collectively punish entire groups of people through the appalling crime of bulldozing the homes of innocent children, amongst other things.
I do have a problem with Sharon's terrorist collective punishments of innocent people. That you see fit to put the words, innocent children, into quotes suggest that you have a real problem with believing there are any and that is not the attitude of a decent democrat in my opinion.
You seem to be "inventing something the other person did not say".
No. Just trying to accurately reflect your views. I notice you didn't deny it so I will take it that it was accurate.
You want to distinguish Palestinian-Arabs from the "same old opressors"(sic) who murdered Jews for centuries...by giving them Carte Blanche to kill more Jews?! By never expecting them to stop killing Jews? By never expecting them to live up to any agreement?