With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[The Fool]

Previously we talked about the revolving door justice system for the Palestinian-Arabs. I would work on the cease fire by seeing to it that the Palestinian Authorities made real efforts to bring to justice those who broke the cease fire.

If the Palestinian Authorities are not making "real efforts" how come there is the existing cease fire? You see Isolated breaches and lampoon the cease fire.



If they didn’t have the capacity to do it, I would get them aid. If they didn’t have the political clout to do it, I would wait until they did. In any case, I would work on solving this problem before moving on. You can’t make it go away by pretending it isn’t really happening.

what sort of Aid would you give tghe PA? How about the absence of an occupying Army...now that would certainly help them keep the population calm.


Firing a rocket isn’t simple lawlessness and even if it were, it still needs to be dealt with. So long as these actions get a nod and a wink or (at worst) a slap on the wrist from the Abbas government, a cease fire can’t be taken seriously.

yes it is...it is simply people taking justice into thier own hands in the form of revenge taking....It will continue to happen at a low level when people are occupied and you will continue to use it as an excuse to champion israels ongoing occupation.



If the Palestinian Authority put the same effort into arresting these criminals as the NYPD puts into curbing crime, I’d be more than satisfies. The problem is the PA encourages it, they don’t curb it.

And the NYPD cannot eliminate crimes against Authority in NY and niether will the PA be able to eliminate crimes against Israelis in the occupied land... Get used to it and stop using it as an excuse to undermine the peace process.



I don’t expect perfection but it’s not unreasonable to expect real efforts. Arresting, charging and convicting militants who break the cease-fire is a reasonable expectation as is ending enticement to violence. We are not faced with a black/white choice of allow everything or demand perfect compliance. There is reasonable ground in between, only you refuse to look at it.
If you don't expect perfection tell us all what level of violence would be acceptable and still allow the efforts towards peacefull agreement to continue? Or will the sarcastic belittlement of this cease fire be your reaction to any violence? What about Israeli shootings will you critisize them too? Will you claim Likud has not interest in controlling it?

 

[webfusion]

Some perspective:

"It (violence by the Palestinians) will continue to happen at a low level when people are occupied and you will continue to use it as an excuse to champion israels ongoing occupation."

I don't know what will or will not happen when Israel ultimately withdraws, and the New Palestine State is formed.

However, if I look at the following list of atrocities perpetrated by Palestinians during the period when they were not under occupation, for sure I have some serious doubts about Israel just sending the IDF to barracks then and doing nothing.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael-1.html
11 Jun 1953 2 killed in Kfar Hess, shot by terrorists invading a home
17 Mar 1954 11 killed, others injured in ambush of bus between Eilat and Tel Aviv
2 Jan 1955 2 killed hiking in the Judean Desert
24 Mar 1955 1 killed, 18 injured in grenade and shooting attack on wedding in Patish
7 Apr 1956 1 killed in grenade attack on home in Ashkelon
7 Apr 1956 2 killed in ambush of car between Plugot Junction and Mishmar Hanegev
7 Apr 1956 1 killed, 3 injured in several grenade and shooting attacks in Nitzanim and Ketziot
11 Apr 1956 4 killed (including 3 children) and 5 injured in shooting attack on synagogue in Shafrir
29 Apr 1956 1 killed
(just a jew, killed, no circumstances given)
23 Sep 1956 4 killed, 16 injured in shooting attack on archaelogoists near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel; shooters fired from Jordan
24 Sep 1956 1 killed on farms in Aminadav
4 Oct 1956 5 killed in Sdom
9 Oct 1956 2 killed in orchard in Neve Hadassah
8 Nov 1956 6 injured in attacks on a train, cars, and at water wells in various locations across Israel.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
If the Palestinian Authorities are not making "real efforts" how come there is the existing cease fire? You see Isolated breaches and lampoon the cease fire.

Isolated breeches that just happen to be about the same frequency as before the cease-fire.

Originally posted by The Fool
what sort of Aid would you give tghe PA? How about the absence of an occupying Army...now that would certainly help them keep the population calm.

Your pointless and empty sarcasm aside, I think the exact nature of the aid could be subject for discussion and negotiation. This could be a good area for the UN or another neutral party to help.

Originally posted by The Fool
yes it is...it is simply people taking justice into thier own hands in the form of revenge taking....It will continue to happen at a low level when people are occupied and you will continue to use it as an excuse to champion israels ongoing occupation.

Not everybody can make or get a rocket. The person that can has connections. These events will continue to happen as long as nobody is serious about trying to stop them, and as long as those like you insist on pretending it doesn’t mean anything.

Originally posted by The Fool
And the NYPD cannot eliminate crimes against Authority in NY and niether will the PA be able to eliminate crimes against Israelis in the occupied land... Get used to it and stop using it as an excuse to undermine the peace process.

If a person commits a crime in New York they stand a good chance of being prosecuted and punished. If the same standard were to apply in the Gaza Strip, I’d be happy.

Originally posted by The Fool
If you don't expect perfection tell us all what level of violence would be acceptable and still allow the efforts towards peacefull agreement to continue?

The situation as it is right now is that absolutely no effort will be made even to find out who fired the rockets.

If international pressure were applied, what would happen is they would be arrested and placed in prison without charge. Later either be released, or would "escape" in a "spontaneous anti-Israel demonstration" that resulted in a "prison break."

In the case of extreme international pressure, like when the US envoy looking for Palestinian-Arab recipients of US scholarships was ambushed and bombed, "suspects" would be rounded up then rushed to trial before US aided prosecutors could build a case, then they would be found not guilty due to lack of evidence.

The point is any effort at all would be better than none, which is what we have now.

Originally posted by The Fool
Or will the sarcastic belittlement of this cease fire be your reaction to any violence? What about Israeli shootings will you critisize them too? Will you claim Likud has not interest in controlling it?

If the Palestinian-Arab gunmen faced the same sort of investigation and discipline as an Israeli soldier would, that would be something too.


Let me ask you, if you were in charge of the Palestinian-Arabs, what would you do about an underling who violated a cease-fire?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Re: Cease-Fire is holding fairly well

It was this specific action which may have prompted the militants in Gaza to fire the Qassems and perpetrate the attack on the bus, as retaliation for the death of those teenagers. In this one instance, kimiko appears to be correct.

See, here's the real cycle. Mephisto et al. would have us believe that this is some sort of eye for eye situation in which the Palestinians kill people, then Israelis kill people in retaliation, then Palestinians kill more people. What's really going on is that that Palestinians kill a bunch of people, public opinion starts to turn around on them, so militants intentionally get themselves killed (or other Palestinians killed), then Palestinians whine about how "bloodthirsty" the Israelis are, and use it as "justification" to kill more people. If Israeli soldiers went around throwing rocks at Palestinian children, Palestinians wouldn't think twice about shooting the Israelis. Yet for some reason it's perfectly okay for Palestinians to throw rocks at Israelis.

There is simply no way the two are comparable. Palestinians intentionally target innocents. Israelis kill militatnts and/or by accident. Israelis are not "perpetuating a cycle of violence" or "killing in retaliation" or "murdering schoolchildren". They are acting in self defense, and it is disgusting that people would engage in such libel.

 

[webfusion]

Art, allow me...

My posting about the Palestinian teenagers was not an effort to JUSTIFY the shooting of an anti-tank weapon at a Jewish schoolbus. Any more than I would justify the launching of SCUD missiles at Tel Aviv by Saddam Hussein in 1991 for the reason he claimed:

"Raining fire on the Jews to liberate Palestine"

The people behind launching rockets, shooting at cars and busses, sending suicide bombers into the cities, and encouraging their children to throw barrages of stones at armed troops, are they doing it because of the "occupation" or in "retailiation" for a particular incident or other?

I don't think so. Looking at a list of terror attacks from 1956 proves this. The brutality was perpetrated against Jews merely because they were Jews.

Israel is now in the annual period of Holocaust Remembrance, leading to the celebration of their Independence. It is all interconnected.

The Palestinians are at a crossroads.
They cannot pursue their goal of the destruction of Israel any longer in this generation. It is a dream they may hold onto for future generations, that I cannot predict.
But for now, they have to trust Israel and the USA (and the EU and Russia too) to do the right thing on their behalf, and if they miss this opportunity, miss this outstretched hands of Israel, Egypt and Jordan to help them form a proper non-terrorist-dominated society, then what is left?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Cease-Fire is holding fairly well

Israelis are not "perpetuating a cycle of violence" or "killing in retaliation" or "murdering schoolchildren". They are acting in self defense, and it is disgusting that people would engage in such libel.

shooting stone throwing children in self defence?....here we go again with the Art Vandelay method of discouraging stone throwing.

Art...it appears even the Israeli Authorities have not attempted to label the shooting "self defence".

 

[The Fool]

Isolated breeches that just happen to be about the same frequency as before the cease-fire.

Are you suggesting that since the cease fire there has been no dramatic drop off in violence contrary to all visible evidence? Are you doing that mycroft?....everyone seems to have no problem seeing the obvious. Is there any limit to the efforts you will go to to avoid any chance of peace breaking out?



Your pointless and empty sarcasm aside, I think the exact nature of the aid could be subject for discussion and negotiation. This could be a good area for the UN or another neutral party to help.

As I suspected, you have no Idea...you just want to be able to use the platitudes without any actual substance behind them.


Not everybody can make or get a rocket. The person that can has connections. These events will continue to happen as long as nobody is serious about trying to stop them, and as long as those like you insist on pretending it doesn’t mean anything.

As you said, the NYPD is serious about stopping crime in NY... but they can't. You want the PA to perform miracles before you will take any steps towards peace.


If a person commits a crime in New York they stand a good chance of being prosecuted and punished. If the same standard were to apply in the Gaza Strip, I’d be happy.

what is the clearing rate of violent crime in NY? Tell you what, I.ve just had a great Idea....lets make the palestinians a nation then we can hold them accountable through international laws that apply to nations.....but wait, that would mean you would have to give up calling the place they live "Israeli land"..



The situation as it is right now is that absolutely no effort will be made even to find out who fired the rockets.

I suspect that the PA may feel that ordinary palestinians don't want to see people they regard as fighting thier oppressors from being prosecuted for taking revenge for the killing of Palestinian children....Do you want to bulldoze a couple of houses to continue the cycle of revenge....you seem to want to throw the ceasfire in the toilet any chance you get....

If international pressure were applied, what would happen is they would be arrested and placed in prison without charge. Later either be released, or would "escape" in a "spontaneous anti-Israel demonstration" that resulted in a "prison break."

what sort of international pressure? Threatening them with not forcing the Israelis to pull out by wieght of public opinion?


In the case of extreme international pressure, like when the US envoy looking for Palestinian-Arab recipients of US scholarships was ambushed and bombed, "suspects" would be rounded up then rushed to trial before US aided prosecutors could build a case, then they would be found not guilty due to lack of evidence.

Not un uncommon process in the area....Hey I've got an Idea....no, hang on...you've already heard about allowing them to be a nation so they could be held accountable...that catch about the land.


The point is any effort at all would be better than none, which is what we have now.

If the Palestinian-Arab gunmen faced the same sort of investigation and discipline as an Israeli soldier would, that would be something too.
Let me ask you, if you were in charge of the Palestinian-Arabs, what would you do about an underling who violated a cease-fire?
I would take whatever action I could depending on what real world access or control I had over the person...You probably think all palestinians are controlled by Abbas. If I was like you I would just call it all too hard, toss the ceasefire in the toilet and call for a return to intifada.

 

[Mycroft]

shooting stone throwing children in self defence?....here we go again with the Art Vandelay method of discouraging stone throwing.

It seems every time an Israeli tank stands idly by doing nothing a photographer can find a Palestinian-Arab urchin willing to pose with his armed poised as if about to throw a pebble, creating a poignant image symbolizing the disparity of power and the plucky courage of these noble souls who resist occupation and oppression.

The reality is somewhat different. If instead of babies with pebbles you imagine packs of teenagers each throwing multiple rocks bigger than your fist creating a deadly hail that slams down on or around you with skull-crushing force sometimes from multiple directions.

As a rule, they don’t get shot. But if they were, you couldn’t exactly say they were not wielding deadly force.

 

[demon]

Art Vanderlay:
"Anyone with a web server can put up a website claiming that the US has killed 100,000 Iraqis. Doesn't make it convincing, though."

I might be wrong but I think Mephisto is referring to The Lancet Report here.
A peer reviewed and thoroughly scrutinized Lancet Study is a little more than someone putting up a website and making a claim. I suggest you read it and then I look forward to you debunking it for us.

 

[demon]

The Fool:
"shooting stone throwing children in self defence?....here we go again with the Art Vandelay method of discouraging stone throwing."

Yes, that was amusing the first time around. I hope the sequel is just as good...I`ll get my popcorn

 

[demon]

Mycroft:
"The reality is somewhat different. If instead of babies with pebbles you imagine packs of teenagers each throwing multiple rocks bigger than your fist creating a deadly hail that slams down on or around you with skull-crushing force sometimes from multiple directions."

"multiple rocks", "deadly hail", "skull crushing force", "multiple directions"...you are wasted here Mycroft, you should be writing for Marvel Comics.

 

[The Fool]

It seems every time an Israeli tank stands idly by doing nothing a photographer can find a Palestinian-Arab urchin willing to pose with his armed poised as if about to throw a pebble, creating a poignant image symbolizing the disparity of power and the plucky courage of these noble souls who resist occupation and oppression.

The reality is somewhat different. If instead of babies with pebbles you imagine packs of teenagers each throwing multiple rocks bigger than your fist creating a deadly hail that slams down on or around you with skull-crushing force sometimes from multiple directions.

As a rule, they don’t get shot. But if they were, you couldn’t exactly say they were not wielding deadly force.

I know......you want to shoot them too. Maybe you should lobby to have this plan enacted in the USA next time there are rock throwing riots. How do you think the American public would react to americans being shot for rock throwing?

 

[Art Vandelay]

webfusion:
No, I wasn't including you in "et al".

The Fool

shooting stone throwing children in self defence?....here we go again with the Art Vandelay method of discouraging stone throwing.

Here we go again with The Fool's lying. I did not present any "method of discouraging stone throwing", merely pointed out that comparing the shooting of stone throwers to firing rockets at school buses is absolutely ridiculous. We have already had this discussion, your position was shown to have no merit, yet you insist on twisting my statements into a universal endorsement of killing stone throwers even though I have previously made it clear that that is not my position. The excuse of ignorance not being available to you after I spend several pages trying to get this through your thick skull, I can only conclude that you are simply a liar who will use any trick he thinks will discredit his opposition.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
I know......you want to shoot them too.

You're trying to be king of the straw-man, arn't you? Is there anything else you would like to attribute to me?

No, I don't think they should be shot, but neither do I think we should pretend it's nothing either.

Originally posted by The Fool
Maybe you should lobby to have this plan enacted in the USA next time there are rock throwing riots. How do you think the American public would react to americans being shot for rock throwing?

When americans throw rocks at cars and people they get arrested and put in jail. Maybe you should come over here and try it.

 

[The Fool]

webfusion:
No, I wasn't including you in "et al".

The FoolHere we go again with The Fool's lying. I did not present any "method of discouraging stone throwing", merely pointed out that comparing the shooting of stone throwers to firing rockets at school buses is absolutely ridiculous. We have already had this discussion, your position was shown to have no merit, yet you insist on twisting my statements into a universal endorsement of killing stone throwers even though I have previously made it clear that that is not my position. The excuse of ignorance not being available to you after I spend several pages trying to get this through your thick skull, I can only conclude that you are simply a liar who will use any trick he thinks will discredit his opposition.

art.
1. you have previously stated the view that the throwing of rocks makes someone a combatant conducting an attack with a weapon. Do you deny this?
2. You have previosly stated that you are happy with troops shooting combatants conducting an attack...Do you deny this?

Now blow me down if I don't put those two together.

 

[The Fool]

No, I don't think they should be shot, but neither do I think we should pretend it's nothing either.

so will we be expecting your critisizm of the IDF for shooting them?



When americans throw rocks at cars and people they get arrested and put in jail. Maybe you should come over here and try it.
exactly my point....what if they were shot? How about if they were shot by an army of occupation?

 

[Art Vandelay]

1. you have previously stated the view that the throwing of rocks makes someone a combatant conducting an attack with a weapon. Do you deny this?

I said that rock throwers can be considered combatants; I do not recall saying that all rock throwers are combatants.

2. You have previosly stated that you are happy with troops shooting combatants conducting an attack...Do you deny this.

I never said that I am universally happy with shooting combatants conducting an attack. In fact, I was quite adament that there are conditions in which killing combatants might not be advisable. Do you deny that I said that? I recall that we had a prolonged discussion on this very point, with you ridiculing my postion. And now you are pretending that I never said it? The claim that the proper response an attack is ALWAYS to kill combatants is a claim that you made, and which you are now trying to attribute to me. This is the very sort of disingenuous tactic that was so rampant in that other thread.

I suspect that the PA may feel that ordinary palestinians don't want to see people they regard as fighting thier oppressors from being prosecuted for taking revenge for the killing of Palestinian children

Is there a coherent thought somewhere in there?

demon

A peer reviewed and thoroughly scrutinized Lancet Study is a little more than someone putting up a website and making a claim. I suggest you read it and then I look forward to you debunking it for us.

If he wishes to cite the Lancet Study, he should cite the Lancet Study, not cite a page which in turn cites the Lancet Study.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Are you suggesting that since the cease fire there has been no dramatic drop off in violence contrary to all visible evidence? Are you doing that mycroft?....everyone seems to have no problem seeing the obvious. Is there any limit to the efforts you will go to to avoid any chance of peace breaking out?

Where is your evidence that violence has dropped?

Originally posted by The Fool
As I suspected, you have no Idea...you just want to be able to use the platitudes without any actual substance behind them.

I don’t need to know exactly what help they need to say that if they can’t stop the violence on their own they should get help.

Originally posted by The Fool
As you said, the NYPD is serious about stopping crime in NY... but they can't. You want the PA to perform miracles before you will take any steps towards peace.

You’re lying. Time and time again I tell you I don’t expect perfection, just reasonable effort. Why do you keep going back to this all or nothing lie?

Originally posted by The Fool
I suspect that the PA may feel that ordinary palestinians don't want to see people they regard as fighting thier oppressors from being prosecuted for taking revenge for the killing of Palestinian children....Do you want to bulldoze a couple of houses to continue the cycle of revenge....you seem to want to throw the ceasfire in the toilet any chance you get....

Do you realize not one single terrorist has been charged by the PA since its creation 12 years ago? Do you realize the PA was created on its promise to crack down on terrorism? The hypocrisy is staggering.

If there is ever going to be peace then rule of law must take precedence over revenge. It’s that simple.

Originally posted by The Fool
I would take whatever action I could depending on what real world access or control I had over the person...You probably think all palestinians are controlled by Abbas. If I was like you I would just call it all too hard, toss the ceasefire in the toilet and call for a return to intifada.

How is calling for a real cease-fire where people actually cease firing the same as tossing a cease-fire in the toilet?

 

[kimiko]

By making sure that even more will die?

Would Palestinian children stop dying if they didn't blow up a bus of Jewish children? They have no reason to think so, so blaming possible future deaths of Palestinian kids on retaliation for their retaliation is probably not something they would even consider. If Palestinian children have died, and will probably continue to do so, then they would never blame the cause of their deaths on themselves, but on the IDF or whoever in particular is directly responsible. Revenge isn't necessarily a well thought out tactic.

 

[kimiko]

merely pointed out that comparing the shooting of stone throwers to firing rockets at school buses is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not so sure that was the specific reason for the bus attack. More Palestinian children have died than Jewish children; that alone might be enough for them to target children in an attempt to even the score. Not all young Palestinians who die are teenagers or have been throwing stones.

Originally posted by webfusion
...are they doing it because of the "occupation" or in "retailiation" for a particular incident or other?

I don't think so. Looking at a list of terror attacks from 1956 proves this. The brutality was perpetrated against Jews merely because they were Jews.

It doesn't seem like they separate the presence of Jews from the presence of a non-Arab state. If Israel was some other state, perhaps Christian-based, I think they would have attacked with the same frequency and would hold the same grievances.