With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[zenith-nadir]

And Israel breaks the law and steals land when OSLO is supposed to be happening. Welcome to the war, I just hope the goddam thing ends soon.

So does that mean you realize that Israel creating Hamas is ludicrous?

A Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) poll from December 2004 showed that 61% of the Israelis and 53% of the Palestinians believe that Arafat’s death increased the chances for reaching a political settlement in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, (link). Over half of the Palestinians believe that things will get better without Arafat, therefore if you simply don't believe me a_u_p, believe the Palestinians.

Now that that is out of the way the issue is what to do with these groups and their "factions" which are now out in the cold. This isn't a new phenomenon a_u_p, promises to stop terror and attacks predate Oslo, any settlements, the occupation, even the creation of Israel. Over the long decades guys like Haj Amin al Husseini, Yassin, Arafat, Nasser, Assad merged Palestinian Nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism and created these "monsters" to kill jews and destroy Israel. Hell, the grandaddy of them all is the Palestinian Authority...aka the PLO.

99.97% of Israelis want "the goddam thing to end soon" and it is as it always has been... either the Palestinian Authority - formerly the PLO - ends it or Israel is forced to.

 

[a_unique_person]

So does that mean you realize that Israel creating Hamas is ludicrous?

No, it was just a plan to destabilise Fatah that backfired badly.

A Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) poll from December 2004 showed that 61% of the Israelis and 53% of the Palestinians believe that Arafat’s death increased the chances for reaching a political settlement in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, (link). Over half of the Palestinians believe that things will get better without Arafat, therefore if you simply don't believe me a_u_p, believe the Palestinians.

Now that that is out of the way the issue is what to do with these groups and their "factions" which are now out in the cold. This isn't a new phenomenon a_u_p, promises to stop terror and attacks predate Oslo, any settlements, the occupation, even the creation of Israel. Over the long decades guys like Haj Amin al Husseini, Yassin, Arafat, Nasser, Assad merged Palestinian Nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism and created these "monsters" to kill jews and destroy Israel. Hell, the grandaddy of them all is the Palestinian Authority...aka the PLO.

99.97% of Israelis want "the goddam thing to end soon" and it is as it always has been... either the Palestinian Authority - formerly the PLO - ends it or Israel is forced to.

You know that is not true, so why do you say it.

 

[Art Vandelay]

And Israel breaks the law and steals land when OSLO is supposed to be happening. Welcome to the war, I just hope the goddam thing ends soon.

People generally put their own concerns above those of others. People also generally put the deliberate targeting of civilians for vicious murder over quarrels regarding land ownership. Put those two tendencies together, and only a person with a despicable lack of empathy for Israelis would be unable to grasp why the issue of land justice is not a higher priority in Israel. And yet, despite all of this, there is a large movement among Israelis, and nonIsraeli Jews, to address injustices against Palestinians. Where is the Muslim movement to stop terrorism?

It really says something about the two sides that even though Israelis are victims of genocidal hatred, and Palestinians are the clear agressors, Jews are still doing much more for Muslim rights than vice versa. The Palestinians can end this any time they want to, and as long as they don't, they will find it difficult to garner sympathy from anyone other than antisemites.

 

[zenith-nadir]

No, it was just a plan to destabilise Fatah that backfired badly.

Sometimes a_u_p you almost seem normal, then you go totally off the deep end and start saying that Israel created Hamas to destabilise Fatah. That is just plain nuts and tinfoil beanie material. Hamas was formed in late 1987 out of the Muslim Brotherhood, it's funded by Iran, Palestinian expatriates and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.... But feel free to document how Israel created Hamas for I am dying to know where you get this tinfoil beanie info.

You know that is not true, so why do you say it.

If out and out denial is your only rebuttal then I guess I win the debate.

Fatah admits murdered Bethlehem 'collaborators' were innocent - Jun. 11, 2005

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH Jerusalem Post

Fatah gunmen admitted over the weekend that nine Palestinians who were murdered in Bethlehem on suspicion of collaboration with Israel were actually innocent victims of lawlessness.

Some of the suspects were being held by the Palestinian Authority security forces before they were handed over to the gunmen.

This was not the first time that a Palestinian group had exonerated Palestinians who were murdered on suspicion of assisting Israeli security forces. Earlier this year, Hamas admitted that its members had mistakenly murdered a man from a village near Ramallah after accusing him of collaboration with Israel. Hamas also agreed to pay $30,000 in compensation to the family of the victim.

(emphasis mine)

PA kills 4 murderers in first executions since 2001 - 12/06/2005

The Palestinian Authority carried out its first executions since 2001 Sunday, killing four convicted murderers as part of a what a government spokesman said was a new campaign to rein in lawlessness and chaos.

The four men executed were sentenced to death by a Palestinian court, said Interior Ministry spokesman Tawfiq Abu Khoussa. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas signed the execution orders on Saturday, he added.

The executions came less than two weeks after Israel agreed to free 400 jailed Palestinians on condition that the death sentences on 50 Palestinians convicted of collaboration with Israel would not be carried out.

(emphasis mine)

 

[a_unique_person]

People generally put their own concerns above those of others. People also generally put the deliberate targeting of civilians for vicious murder over quarrels regarding land ownership. Put those two tendencies together, and only a person with a despicable lack of empathy for Israelis would be unable to grasp why the issue of land justice is not a higher priority in Israel. And yet, despite all of this, there is a large movement among Israelis, and nonIsraeli Jews, to address injustices against Palestinians. Where is the Muslim movement to stop terrorism?

Ignorance is not an argument. I would suggest you make a claim based on research, first.

It really says something about the two sides that even though Israelis are victims of genocidal hatred, and Palestinians are the clear agressors, Jews are still doing much more for Muslim rights than vice versa. The Palestinians can end this any time they want to, and as long as they don't, they will find it difficult to garner sympathy from anyone other than antisemites.

It is anything but clear. Clarity comes from transparency, but Israel is actually not that transparent when it comes to what it is doing to the Palestinians.

"Quarrels over land" understates the fact. Many Palestinians are farmers, and are losing land that is feeding their children. Malnutrition is one result.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/584293.html

Arena of harsh conflict

The southern Hebron Hills area has become in recent years the arena of a harsh conflict between the Palestinians - mostly cave dwellers, peasants and shepherds - and the settlers.

And in the past six months, the settlers - radical groups occupying the illegal outposts in the area - have considerably intensified their attacks and harassment of the Palestinians.

In an incident three weeks ago, several haystacks made by Palestinian farmers were set alight. A few hours earlier, four young settlers sawed off the branches of numerous olive trees. And that week, Jewish shepherds brought a herd of goats and sheep to Palestinian fields that had been sown with lentils, opposite the village of Gawish in the Hebron hills. In Beit Imra, some 200 olive trees, each about 15 years old, were chopped down. Settlers drove a plow over a cultivated field nearby and destroyed it. And two weeks ago, 20 settlers armed with sticks and stones arrived and beat up some shepherds. A 10-year-old boy suffered injuries that required stitches to his face, and three ewes were killed. At the end of that week, settlers stole 10 young lambs that had not yet been weaned. In the nights that followed, the Palestinians said they heard the lambs bleating, but could not reach them.

The settlers reserve their most violent attacks for the international volunteers, who sometimes accompany the Palestinians to protect them from harassment. On several occasions in the past months, masked men attacked Palestinian children and foreign volunteers who were walking with them to school. Several volunteers were hospitalized as a result.

The settlers' attacks on the Palestinians in this region are a daily occurrence. The most extreme zealots keep coming up with ever-more malicious and destructive ideas - arson, plowing cultivated fields, bringing herds to seeded fields, poisoning sheep, poisoning water wells and more.

Most incidents of violence and destruction are not reported to the police. "It's exhausting to file complaints all the time," says Nawi. "The residents waste two hours traveling to the police station, they are humiliated at the entrance, where they are made to wait for several hours, then receive at best a note confirming that a complaint has been filed."

The Hebron police say they take every complaint seriously, and that they have done some searching and probing in area settlements recently.

"The police are acting in the area," says the Judea and Samaria (West Bank) District Police spokesman, Shlomi Saguy. "We have beefed up patrols in the region. We do not close the inquiries. We make every effort to bring the suspects to trial. The Palestinians don't always cooperate, and the settlers are much worse."

Don't target the children, just let them starve to death.

 

[webfusion]

feud

The article you offered in support of your claim that the Israelis are "starving the Palestinians (children) to death" does not say anywhere that is happening on a wide scale. It mentions some isolated incidents of settlers antagonizing and harrassing the local population in the Hebron hills, and the Israeli authorities doing little to intervene in the feud.

As for Palestinian child malnutrition, which you are claiming is the direct fault of the Israelis ---

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=88&CategoryId=1

I'm not going to waste anyone's time asking for evidence and links -- The research is readily available (take note, EJ Armstrong). It is quite obvious that there has been some level of malnutrition problem (mainly in Gaza) as a result of Israeli actions. The above link refers to an "emergency situation" in 2002, three years ago! DCI doesn't have the current USAID report -- maybe a_u_p can find it and post it.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Other Updates/Food running out in Gaza.htm
February 2003 -- Food Warehouses Almost Empty, No Relief In Sight

What is the condition today? Is it better or worse?

On a related point, here is an article that shows how the UN published a report about child malnutrition in Iraq blaming it on the US-led "occupation" there.
http://www.americandaily.com/article/7343

However, the question is really this:

Would there be such a severe policy from the Israelis in the absense of terrorism? Would the Palestinians be suffering?

I think not.


-----------------------
PS -- the Israeli children also have a malnutrition issue,
http://www.wizo.org/poverty/poverty_israel.asp
530,700 Israeli children-25% of all of the children in the country-live below the poverty line, according to a report released by the Israeli National Insurance Institute.

The 'collapse of the Israeli economy' (2003) was a direct result of Palestinian terror in 2000, 2001 and 2002 (continuing in 2003 and 2004).

It is not a one-sided problem, whereby the Israelis set out to harm the Palestinians and the Palestinians are the "salt of the Earth" and have no responsibility for their own conditions.

art vandelay said:And yet, despite all of this, there is a large movement among Israelis, and nonIsraeli Jews, to address injustices against Palestinians. Where is the Muslim movement to stop terrorism?

You dismissed this statement as a claim based on ignorance and unsupported by the facts (research). What makes you think that art vandelay is wrong? I am curious.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I see you have nothing of substance to refute my points, only soundbites "Ignorance is not an argument" and "Clarity comes from transparency".

If what's happening to these Palestinians is so bad, why aren't the Palestinian militants coming over there and doing something about it? If so called "freedom fighters" are blowing up innocent civilians while Palestinians are starving, that is simply MORE evidence of the moral bankrupcy of the Palestinian cause. That would be like me complaining that someone robbed my house while I was out raping women. If they put as much effort into protecting Palestinian rights as they do in killing off Israelis, a lot of this would be prevented. What do you suggest Israel do? Send in the IDF, and give terrorists easy targets?

It really shows the hypocrisy of the Palestinian apologists that they pretend that the actions of individual Israelis represent official Israeli policy, but insist that the only people responsible for terrorism are the terrorists themselves, despite widespread support among the Palestinians.

The ultimate responsibility lies with the Palestinians, not only because they put taking Israelis lives over saving Palestinian ones, but because their support of terrorism ensures that Palestinian rights will not be the top Israeli priority. Killing someone's child, then expecting them to save yours is absurd.

 

[webfusion]

absurdity is the rule

Art, if you want to see this absurdity taken to a new level, here are the words of the Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza:

• "We are going to meet again within two days in order to discuss our final stand," said Mohammed al-Hindi, an Islamic Jihad leader. "It looks like Israel will continue in this aggression and we cannot accept that anymore."
  
  Two Islamic militant groups responsible for dozens of suicide bombings threatened Sunday to pull out of a four-month-old cease-fire, accusing Israel of violating the truce.
  
  Leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad said their groups would make a final decision in the coming days. The groups made their announcements after a meeting of Palestinian factions in Gaza.

So, Israel is the aggressor, by their refusing to allow continued attacks on the part of the terrorists ("militants")
and when the IDF acts against them directly ---- as they are in the process (or planning) of bombing, shooting, firing mortars & rockets, throwing grenades, strapping on explosive vests, etc. ---- we are told by the Islamic Jihad & HAMAS it is a violation of the truce!!!!!!!!!

This has been going on for 120 years with the Arabs making a sport of killing Jews in this part of the world. Now, suddenly, these Palestinian Arabs find that their murderous ways are being thwarted effectively by the IDF, so what is their comment? "We cannot accept that anymore" Screw them. If al-Hindi and his gangs dare to revoke their outright participation in the valuable and well-regarded PA official efforts to maintain a calm, I would appreciate for the IDF to kill this SOB al_Hindi and that should put paid to the cease fire and see what happens next. If Abbas thinks he can allow these thugs free reign to disrupt Israeli life and commit atrocities, he is totally mistaken.

===================================

Israeli kids on a summer day.

=
=
=
=
=

Palestinian kids on a summer day.

 

[a_unique_person]

I see you have nothing of substance to refute my points, only soundbites "Ignorance is not an argument" and "Clarity comes from transparency".

If you make a claim, you are expected to provide some evidence for it, not ask "where are", for example.

Transparency is important, otherwise it is difficult to know all the facts to make a considered opinion.

If what's happening to these Palestinians is so bad, why aren't the Palestinian militants coming over there and doing something about it? If so called "freedom fighters" are blowing up innocent civilians while Palestinians are starving, that is simply MORE evidence of the moral bankrupcy of the Palestinian cause. That would be like me complaining that someone robbed my house while I was out raping women. If they put as much effort into protecting Palestinian rights as they do in killing off Israelis, a lot of this would be prevented. What do you suggest Israel do? Send in the IDF, and give terrorists easy targets?

If those Palestinians had done something to get back their livestock as it starved to death, you can guarantee they would have been shot as 'terrorists'.

As it is Hamas is doing a lot for Palestinian welfare, apparently.

It really shows the hypocrisy of the Palestinian apologists that they pretend that the actions of individual Israelis represent official Israeli policy, but insist that the only people responsible for terrorism are the terrorists themselves, despite widespread support among the Palestinians.

As I demonstrated in another thread, the official policy of Israel was to break it's own laws, steal land from Palestinians. An official policy subisiding such people as these radical settlers.

The ultimate responsibility lies with the Palestinians, not only because they put taking Israelis lives over saving Palestinian ones, but because their support of terrorism ensures that Palestinian rights will not be the top Israeli priority. Killing someone's child, then expecting them to save yours is absurd.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? If you go on simple statistics, more Palestinian children die in this conflict than Israeli.

I do not try to make out the Palestinians to be any more than what they are, you will find references to them in links I have provided that are not flattering, Arafat was not my idol by any means.

All I am trying to do is present the facts that are often left out, that make it clear this conflict is more than just one in which. "The ultimate responsibility lies with the Palestinians". If we could agree on that, I could go home and get some sleep.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: absurdity is the rule

Art, if you want to see this absurdity taken to a new level, here are the words of the Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza:

Palestinian kids on a summer day.

The irony is, Mr Fusion, that you well know that the orange kites are not just kids out having fun, they are making a political statement that their parents have put them up to.

You do not show what the rocks are being thrown out, my guess is an occupying army.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you make a claim, you are expected to provide some evidence for it, not ask "where are", for example.

1. You didn't name any claim that you wanted defended.
2. I have found you to be rather unreasonable, so I don't really expect evidence to make much difference.
3. It's like you're really big on supporting your claims.

If those Palestinians had done something to get back their livestock as it starved to death, you can guarantee they would have been shot as 'terrorists'.

I don't think that's guaranteed. That would be difficult to get away with, and it's rather telling that you presented no actual cases of this. And even if they had, isn't it better to die doing good than to die killing other people? Why are there so many people willing to die in terrorist attacks, but not correcting injustices? Don't you think that Palestinians would garner more sympathy if the victims of their attacks were criminals rather than innocent children?

I'm reminded of that Simpson's episode where parents dealing with a rebellious child exclaim "We've tried nothing, and we're out of ideas!"

As I demonstrated in another thread, the official policy of Israel was to break it's own laws, steal land from Palestinians.

As you've claimed in another thread, you mean. You've presented none of that "evidence" thing of which you spoke earlier to support the claim that the events you described enjoyed official sanction.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

More like: which came first, the bullet or the wound? Are you seriously claiming to not know whether Palestinian terrorism predates the occupation?

If you go on simple statistics, more Palestinian children die in this conflict than Israeli.

And more Germans than Americans died in WWII. What's your point?

All I am trying to do is present the facts that are often left out, that make it clear this conflict is more than just one in which. "The ultimate responsibility lies with the Palestinians".

But it is such. They do not bear all responsibility, but they do bear ultimate responsibility. In the end, it all goes back to Palestinian terrorism.

The irony is, Mr Fusion, that you well know that the orange kites are not just kids out having fun, they are making a political statement that their parents have put them up to.

Evidence?

You do not show what the rocks are being thrown out, my guess is an occupying army.

Does that make it okay?

 

[webfusion]

you know what?

Art, I'll accept the point that the orange kites are being flown as a political statement, and that the kids' parents put them up to it.

However, in the same breath, I am going to ask everyone to look carefully at the second photo and at the extreme right it is possible to see that is not a child holding a rock, it is the mother (or aunt or grandmother) of the kids who is "putting them up to it" and encouraging this violence.

That is the difference.

The Palestinians had better get their acts together by the end of this summer, or their 'suffering' isn't going to be diminished one iota, and probably will increase exponentially in direct proportion to the amount of terror still perpetrated against Israel. Their rock-throwing against an "occupying army" is the lamest excuse ever created on the face of this good green Earth. Let them get their own house in order before throwing rocks (the expression 'glass houses' seems appropriate here).

 

[zenith-nadir]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Arab terrorism came first. Before Israel, before settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, before the Haganah, before Maale Adumim, before the wall, before the occupation...before everything JREFers blame for Palestinian "resistance" the Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al-Husseini devoted his life to driving Jews out of Palestine in the 20s, 30s and 40s. [Capel blames zionism for Haj Amin Al-Husseini, I chose to call a spade a spade and blame Haj Amin Al-Husseini's xenophobia, fundamentalism and extremism for Haj Amin Al-Husseini actions].

If you go on simple statistics, more Palestinian children die in this conflict than Israeli.

Ahhh, the old "the losers should be the winners because they lost more people" strawman...

Arafat was not my idol by any means.

Arafat - a dictator for 30+ years - stole aid money from the mouths of Palestinians as he encouraged them to their deaths. "A million martyrs to Jerusalem" was his favorite phrase. While children starved because the international aid money never reached their dinner tables his wife Suha lives in Paris on millions and millions of Palestinian Authority aid money. Arafat perpetuated these crimes against humanity while he lied, cheated and alienated just about every nation on Earth. Arafat did more damage to the Palestinian cause than Israel ever has.

All I am trying to do is present the facts that are often left out, that make it clear this conflict is more than just one in which. "The ultimate responsibility lies with the Palestinians". If we could agree on that, I could go home and get some sleep.

Regardless of everything you feel or believe a_u_p only the Palestinians can make peace with Israel, Israel cannot make peace for the Palestinians.

 

[webfusion]

where are...

...the Muslim anti-terror movements? -- asks Art Vandelay.

Right here, dude! (The photo was posted by JREF forum participant who actually went to this pitiful rally in Washington DC recently)

Image courtesy BPSCG May 14, 2005

===============================

Zenith Nadir, you don't have to go so far back to illustrate the lack of seriousness on the part of the Palestinians to achieve through peaceful means a resolution of their grievances. Go back 24 hours and see what the 'cease fire' means to the Arabs in general:

From Lebanon yesterday:
Hezbollah supports the destruction of Israel and the expulsion of its Jewish citizens.
"This is a hope, a long-term strategy, Israelis don't have a right to stay in Palestine, the state of Israel is an illegal state."

From Gaza:
Palestinian militants early Monday fired missiles at Jewish civilian housing in the Gaza Strip, according to Israel Radio.
IDF soldiers manning Rafah near the Gaza-Egypt border came under gunfire.
Also overnight, Palestinians opened fire on IDF bases near the south Gaza settlement of Netzarim and the West Bank city of Tul Karm, and a mortar shell hit north Gaza.

From Palestinian TV:
On Saturday, Palestinian Authority Foreign Minister Nasser al-Kidwa told Palestinian television that disarming militants was not on the agenda.
"The dismantling of armed organizations is not on the table because weapons are legal as long as the occupation exists," he said.

"Possession of weapons is a strategic issue as long as there is occupation," al-Kidwa continued.

(It must be noted that when referring to "the Occupation" the general meaning here in context is "The Occupation of ALL Palestine by the Jews" --- see Hezbollah remarks above)

The upcoming meeting on June 21st between Abbas and Sharon will be fairly useless, in my opinion.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Zenith Nadir, you don't have to go so far back to illustrate the lack of seriousness on the part of the Palestinians to achieve through peaceful means a resolution of their grievances.

The reason I do is to lay a foundation that the Palestinians never had a chance, their so-called leaders have never tried to resolve their grievances through peaceful means. From day one in the 1920s, (and earlier), mullahs, "kings" and dictators embraced fundamentalism and extremism. The call has always been "Izbah Al-Yahud!"

Some JREFers debate that it is the european zionists fault for moving there in the first place, I find that position ultimately racist and openly xenophobic, especially in the face of the fact that one can trace a jewish presence in Jerusalem and the surrounding area back many millenia...even prior to the rise of Islam or Christianity. So who invaded whom initially? Additionally, I don't think there is a single country on earth that is a 100% homogeneous.

After nearly a century of fundamentalism and extremism the Palestinian society has been warped into what we see today, where islamic fundamentalist groups call the shots to the detriment of the Palestinian people - hell, even the Palestinian Authority is afraid of confronting the very islamic fundamentalist groups who ironically were suppose to be fighting for the Palestinian Authority in the first place.

 

[webfusion]

Summer Fashion Scene

I couldn't resist:

Palestinian Summer Fashion Wardrobe

+
+
+
+
+
+

Israeli Summer Fashion Wardrobe

 

[zenith-nadir]

Militant dies of wounds from setting bomb - June 14, 2005 (UPI)

GAZA, June 14 (UPI) -- A Hamas militant injured in an explosion in his house in the Shatti camp in Gaza died Tuesday from his wounds.

Monday's explosion in the crowded camp in western Gaza largely destroyed Kassami's house, which burst into flames, causing panic among the population.

Palestinian sources said the explosion was probably caused by a technical mistake as the militant was preparing an explosive charge.

PA-sponsored gunmen abet anarchy - Jun. 14, 2005 (JP)

The Palestinian Authority's security forces include many thugs and gangsters responsible for the ongoing state of anarchy and lawlessness in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, PA Interior Minister Gen. Nasser Youssef has told Palestinian legislators.

Youssef, who is in charge of the Palestinian security forces, was speaking during a special PLC session called to discuss increased lawlessness and anarchy in PA-controlled areas.

(emphasis mine)


[edited to add]

Palestinian PM threatens to suspend work over chaos - June 14, 2005 (Reuters)

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie threatened on Tuesday to halt the work of the cabinet unless security forces act to stem growing lawlessness in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

But the violence continued on Tuesday when four Palestinians were killed in Gaza in a family feud.

 

[a_unique_person]

If you don't hear about it, it didn't happen.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Middl...point-watchdogs/2005/06/10/1118347593299.html

For a middle-aged, middle-class Israeli woman, Yvonne Mansbach has an unusual way of spending her leisure time. As a member of the women's human rights group MachsomWatch, several times a week the 57-year-old epidemiologist visits the West Bank to monitor Israeli military checkpoints (machsom in Hebrew).

Ranging in age from their 20s to 70s, the group's 500 volunteers hope that what they call the "grandmother effect" - the presence of an older Jewish woman - will calm the young conscripts charged by the Israeli Defence Force with enforcing day-to-day control over Palestinian movements.

Wednesday night saw Yvonne Mansbach in the Arab suburb of A-Ram, where a paramilitary border police checkpoint controls Palestinians seeking to travel between the Ramallah area and Arab East Jerusalem.

"Mostly I do it because we have to know what is going on," she said. "If I stayed at home and read the Israeli papers I'd have a very different view of what is going on. We have seen soldiers shooting at children (who threw stones) and when we call the army press office they say 'no, we've checked with the soldiers and they say it's not true'. So we know that what we are told is absolutely not true. But the newspapers here repeat it."

 

[a_unique_person]

"All these checkpoints pretend to offer security but the children at the checkpoints are becoming the next generation of terrorists," said Lia Nirgad. "What they endure there every day is enough to create thousands of people who have nothing to lose. In the last few weeks they've been asking us the bitter question, 'Is this the shape of your peace?' One said to me, "Every time we cross your checkpoints it's like a saw cutting into our flesh'."

Roni Hammerman talked about the "district co-ordination offices" at which Palestinians have to wheedle with Israeli soldiers for the special permits needed to travel from one West Bank town to the other, to attend a hospital or school, to visit relatives or to take up jobs in East Jerusalem or Israel.

"You witness people standing in line - no rest rooms, no water, no shade - for hours for just the chance to approach a little window," she says.

"Eventually they are called up after hours, one by one, and then they start this negotiation, getting an answer or not getting an answer. They get all kinds of forms to fill out that are in Hebrew. Many of them don't know Hebrew. The fact that all the forms written only for an Arabic-speaking population are written in Hebrew is a real sign of the humiliation and contempt built into the system."

And what many Israelis do not know or acknowledge is that most of these checkpoints divide different parts of the West Bank and do not block access to Israel itself.

At many of them, soldiers check IDs and permits but usually don't bother to search for bombs or weapons - a strange policy for roadblocks that are meant to be preventing terrorism.

Based on this observation, MachsomWatch charges that most checkpoints are designed not for security but for collective punishment and social engineering, and also to allow Jewish settlers to move freely around West Bank roads closed to most Arab traffic.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The Age newspaper - who editors lothe israel in the first place - are not going to provide security for Israelis from Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah and Fateh. MachsomWatch - the women's human rights group - is not going to provide security for Israelis from Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah and Fateh. The Palestinian Authority - who's own Interior Minister admits the Palestinian Authority's security forces include many thugs and gangsters - is not going to provide security for Israelis from Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah and Fateh.

Ergo a_u_p, Israel is the only one left to provide security for Israelis from Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah and Fateh.

Hussam Abdu, caught at a Israeli checkpoint wearing a bomb vest south of Nablus on Wednesday March 24, 2004

(courtesy of jwr.com)