With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Cleon]

*sigh* ZN, I'm tired of dancing with you. You don't even do it well.

Come back when you have something substantial to say, mkay?

 

[zenith-nadir]

*sigh* ZN, I'm tired of dancing with you. You don't even do it well. Come back when you have something substantial to say, mkay?

How telling, if your claims were facts you could simply back them up with evidence or documentation as Mycroft did with the ahem..."invalid christian european" judea and samaria maps.

Since your claims are total conjecture and opinion you actually cannot back them up with evidence, so you bow out with "I'm tired of dancing with you. You don't even do it well. Come back when you have something substantial to say".



And that is your typical m.o. Cleon, you are a know-it-all, and when pressed to provide evidence for a single claim of yours your rebuttal is to bow out and blame me for "having nothing substantial to say"...

Call me crazy but somehow I just know your response to this observation shall be something equally as hollow and smarmy as the rest of your posts.

 

[webfusion]

who is lying?

Although it is not a direct commentary on the subject of this thread, I feel that the following piece of information is somewhat relevent in context:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/584234.html

Syria's information minister on Saturday denied Israeli claims his country is developing new weapons and test-fired Scud missiles last week, calling the accusations an "expression of Israel's hostile intentions."

So, who is blatantly lying in this case?

The Turkish military said apparent missile debris from Syria landed on two agricultural villages in the southern province of Hatay, causing no injuries or damage.

A Turkish Foreign Ministry official said Syria had apologized for the incident and assured Turkey it was "just an accident" that occurred during routine military training.

The American administration has provided little beyond "No Comment" as their official response.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Of course it is relevant Web. Everything in the middle east revolves around those damn Israelis...if only they would all just die or move away already!... (from the article):

"It's normal for a state to possess all defense potentials, especially if it is in a region shrouded with tension, aggression and continuous Israeli occupation, in addition to Israel's unbridled desire to expand the circle of aggression and occupation,"

Syria could just be responsible for their actions and admit they are testing new Scuds, no big deal....but once again, Syria has to test Scud missles because of "Israeli aggression and occupation"....Damn those Israelis!

 

[a_unique_person]

I have been providing evidence for nearly a year now and you still claim the same things you said a year ago a_u_p. I think you do not require any more evidence of any kind. Your mind is made up.Good guess. It's really not an issue a_u_p. Areas inside Palestine were known as Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. The real issue is that after Mycroft provided several maps from several time periods the only map 'skeptics' like the fool and Cleon will find acceptable is one without the words Judea and Samaria on it...

You always argue at cross purposes, and wonder why no one ever gets your point. The issue was, not what did a monk in a monastary call the parts of Palestine, but what did the people who lived there call it.

I call Germany Germany, the Germans call it Deutchsland. If you want to on what others call it, rather than the people who live there, then that is up to you.

 

[webfusion]

Tribes of Israel

what did the people who lived there call it.

I'm not sure why this entire subject has become a point of contention here in this thread.

The land was considered 'Southern Syria' throughout the entire Ottoman Occupation. It was divided into "sanjaks" which are general districts. The Jews have always through millenia referred to their homeland as THE LAND OF ISRAEL (Aretz Yisrael). The terms Yehuda v'Shomron denoted the areas of those two tribes (of twelve). The entire list of the divisions is as follows:

Dan
Asher
Napthali
Menashe
Zebulon
Gilead (Gad)
Yehudah
Simeon (Shomron)
Reuben
Benjamin
Ephriam
Issachar
http://members.aol.com/Wisdomway/twelvetribes.htm


So what?


===================

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Tribes of Israel

I'm not sure why this entire subject has become a point of contention here in this thread.

If you can tell me, we'll both know.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I'm not sure why this entire subject has become a point of contention here in this thread.

If you can tell me, we'll both know.

It has become a point of contention here because "other posters" use terms and make claims that just are not true.

The annexation of Jerusalem? How does one get from "terrorism" to "we'll have to establish ethnically exclusive colonies on Palestinian land?"

A) Cleon claims Israel "annexed" Jerusalem when it didn't - Israel gained control of East Jerusalem because of a war.

B) Cleon claims "ethnically exclusive jewish colonies" which is a strawman because they are housing subdivisions not "colonies" - that is obvious rhetoric. Secondly for decades thousands of Palestinians worked on these "ethnically exclusive jewish colonies" until the second intifada ruined that for them as well. Finally, Palestinians have no desire to live amongst jews on jewish settlements - even after 40 years.

The military occupation has remained not because of Palestinian terrorism, but because the Israeli right wing wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza.

C) Cleon claims the Israeli right wing somehow maintains the IDF military occupation in a conspiracy to "annex the West Bank and Gaza". Which is ridiculous.

Wakf official gunned down near Nablus - Jun. 5, 2005

The director-general of the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Wakf, Ali Faraj, was killed on Friday when gunmen opened fire at his car near Nablus. His brother, Hussam, who was traveling with him, was also killed in the attack.

PA security officials said the attack was carried out by four brothers from the village of Qabalan to avenge the murder of their father, Abdallah al-Asmar, during the first intifada on charges of "collaboration" with Israel.

Jibril Rajoub, national security advisor to PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas, condemned the killing of the Faraj brothers, claiming that it had been carried out by "collaborators." "This is an assassination that was carried out by Israel's agents," Rajoub said. "We will take all necessary measures to punish these traitors and spies."

The shooters claim the director-general of the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Wakf labeled their father a 'collaborator' over ten years ago, so they murdered him..... the national security advisor to the Palestinian Authority calls the shooters 'Israel's agents' and 'collaborators' ...and that is how F'ed up it is for Palestinians living under the Palestinian Authority...and that is why the Israeli military occupation remains.

There are really bad guys and really bad groups of guys out there who have no hesistation to murder. Not only would they just love to murder Israelis they will even murder the director-general of the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Wakf, in cold blood, on the street and without trial....just because he may, or may not have, spoken to Israelis. Guess we'll never really know now cause he's dead... and he'll never have a trial.

So when Cleon claims it's all about an Israeli right wing conspiracy to "annex the West Bank and Gaza" I feel the need to correct such misinformation.

You'd think the settlers weren't the right-wing racist lunatics they present themselves as.

D) Cleon claims settlers are "right-wing racist lunatics", when in fact he has no clue how many are racist or right-wing lunatics.

Oh, puh-lease...For the vast majority of that time there was very little Jewish presence there. Who, exactly, was referring to it as "Judea" and "Samaria?" Not the people who actually lived there, that's for sure.

E) Cleon claims "the people who actually lived there" never refered to judea and samaria.... yet he has no first-hand knowledge of this, he can provide no evidence for this and he lays zero foundation for this claim. So Mycroft provided some old maps from 1598 to 1867 which have the words judea or samaria on them, yet the Fool and Cleon attempt to dismiss all these maps as "christian european maps". They must have good reason to use those names on maps over the course of 300 years.

Cleon makes repeated claims that are; A) not true, B) mischaracterizations of real events and C) rarely if ever backed up by a shred of evidence. On a skeptics message board such behaviour needs to be debunked and that is why said issue has become a point of contention here.

 

[a_unique_person]

On a skeptics message board such behaviour needs to be debunked and that is why said issue has become a point of contention here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57845

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

[Ioriginallyn posted by Mycroft[/I]
Mycroft, I have never noted anything but honest and serious debate from you. Hang in there.

It seems you have not been following Mycroft's oeuvre closely enough.

Did you notice anything about disfigured children at any point?

Did you notice that he made a claim about a tiny group that he refuse to define?

Clearly the actions of a decent and honet sceptic I believe.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by webfusion
EJ, when I feel that a supporting link is necessary or vital to the discussion, I provide one. In the meantime, all I see you doing is complaining and sniping in the forums about people here failing to back up their "claims", despite the evidence and clear references to well-known realities. You seem to have a serious issue with people making statements of facts that are essentially not in dispute to begin with.

So you are uninterested in supporting your own claim. So be it.

You are also, making a false claim. I am interested in debating facts not fantasy. I note that once again you have refused to support your own claim with a simple link to the site you took your claim from. You have spent more time avoiding a simple claim than supporting it. It seems that demonstrates the nature of your own claims a la Mycroft.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Some of us ignore E.J. for that sort of behavior. Actually, most of us ignore him for that sort of behavior.

I don't want to tell you what to do or anything, I'm just saying ignoring him works pretty well.

Just in case you want to try something different on that front.

Ah the true whiff of a Mycroft post. Notice how he demonstrates his wit and respect for the truth and rational argument by resorting to Modus operandum number 1, namely demonising others, straight of the bat.

Interestingly, he also makes a claim that is easily testable.

Mycroft, if you have any respect for the truth of your own claims please provide evidence to show that more than 50% of us (by hich it seems you are referring to those who post on this site) ignore me.

It is a simple question to judge how much repect you have left for the truth. My guess that based on your previous claims here you will provide no support for your claim whatsoever.

Mycroft is once again tries to stifle debate, as he regularly does.
Plus ca change.

It really is a very sad case.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by RandFan
Good advice. Trust me on this one. Trust Mycroft. Sometimes you just have to ask "what's the point?"

Baiting without a rational argument.

This is what happens when you disagree with RandFan. He attempts to stifle freedom of speech and demonise those who disagree with him.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Baiting ignored.

There is naturally nothing hypocritical in highlighting baiting in others while practising it yourself.

You just cannot make this stuff up.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Back on topic;

Seems like there is no ceasefire for Palestinians from Palestinians either:

Palestinian militants raid Authority buildings - Sun Jun 5, 2005

NABLUS, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian militants raided two Palestinian Authority offices on Sunday to demand jobs and protection in a further sign of lawlessness in the West Bank and Gaza.

About 15 members of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, part of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction, fired in the air at the entrance to Nablus Governor Mohammed al-Alul's office and stormed into the Interior Ministry in the West Bank city.

Witnesses said an employee at the governor's office was slightly wounded in the incident.

The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, part of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction attacking Palestinian Authority offices belonging to President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah government...wrap your head around that one folks...

 

[webfusion]

Asked and Answered

EJ Armstrong tells me that I am "uninterested in supporting my own claim" ---- despite advice offered by several posters here not to bother with refuting Ej's garbage, I wish to hereby make mention of the fact that I clearly supported my "claim" !!!

EJ challenged me:"I have posted the words of IDF soldiers. Are you saying they are liars?"

And I replied:
First, according to testimony in open court, yes, they are indeed liars. The trial of the IDF officer is a matter of public record. The soldiers lied and that has been brought forward in the defense of the officer.

I proceeded to provide various statements reported by the media in my subsequent postings after EJ demanded proof of my "claim" that IDF troops were revealed to have lied in their testimony about about the circumstances surrounding the shooting death of 13-year-old Iman al-Hams by Captain "R" --- (to be really fair, I even used Aljazeera as a source).

However, what was the original context of EJ Armstrong's complaint about me not backing up my claim? It is very important to note:

The entire exchange that I eventually commented on with my statement above began with Art Vandelay challenging EJ on page 2 :
1. You did not post what the IDF actually did, you posted an alleged position of the IDF. Whether the IDF murders children and whether the IDF considers murdering children to be the "answer" are two different issues.
2. Mycroft did not "invent something the other person did not say", he posted his opinion of what Mephisto's position is, just as you posted your opinion of what the IDF's position is.
3. You say that the two are different because your statement is based on actuality, yet you have not proven that Mycroft was wrong.
4. Your "evidence" is ridiculous. You simply presented examples of people who had been killed, without any evidence that the IDF killed them, or that they had been murdered.
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

To which EJ Armstrong then answered:
(on page 3 of our thread):

My 'evidence' comes from one of the most reputable sources of world news, namely the BBC and from Israel sources themselves. If you had read the link you would have noticed that either the commander of a unit or the men are lying when 'The soldiers complained that after the first shots were fired at the girl, the company commander approached her motionless body, fired two shots to her head, and then sprayed her with automatic fire. The commander denies some of the accusations, Haaretz reports. ' I know it is ridiculous to posting the words of IDF soldiers as claimed by IDF soldiers and as reported by the BBC.

Who is lying here the IDF or the IDF?


To which I replied --- "Yes, the IDF soldiers were lying."


And now, several pages in this thread later, EJ comes along and says:

So you are uninterested in supporting your own claim. So be it.

You are also, making a false claim.

I was advised that EJ Armstrong is not worth answering, and that seems to be true and I am therefore now adding him to my "ignore" list along with demon.

See ya.

=======================

BTW, the cease-fire is being ignored officially by Islamic Jihad
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/584255.html
The sources say that the network's members in Jenin receive some $250,000 a month for their activities. The money arrives from Damascus, apparently via banks in Europe.

The Jihad is preparing for the day after the IDF's withdrawal from northern Samaria and the evacuation of the area's four settlements - Ganim, Kadim, Sa-Nur and Homesh (linked to the Gaza evacuation in August). At the same time the organization is continuing with its attacks on Israeli targets and no longer sees itself committed to the cease-fire declared in the Cairo talks with the Palestinian Authority more than three months ago.

The Jihad's long-term efforts include operating local networks in the south of the West Bank, which receive orders from the Jenin headquarters. It has also improved its capabilities in building rockets and bombs.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Webfusion
EJ Armstrong tells me that I am "uninterested in supporting my own claim" ---- despite advice offered by several posters here not to bother with refuting Ej's garbage, I wish to hereby make mention of the fact that I clearly supported my "claim" !!!

I think it is important to post the actual facts here.

You claimed that 'First, according to testimony in open court, yes, they are indeed liars. The trial of the IDF officer is a matter of public record. The soldiers lied and that has been brought forward in the defense of the officer.'
I then asked 'Can you provide a link to the court procedings?...'
You replied 'EJ --- I would have thought you could google the public record of the trial of Captain "R" in a few seconds, less time than it took you to ask me for further links and details. Sometimes all this 'you claimed, so you need to show the proof' stuff is just too lame. What ever happened to people using their own brains and checking things for themselves?'

In other words, you refused point blank to supply a simple link to support your own claim.

I proceeded to provide various statements reported by the media in my subsequent postings after EJ demanded proof of my "claim" that IDF troops were revealed to have lied in their testimony about about the circumstances surrounding the shooting death of 13-year-old Iman al-Hams by Captain "R" --- (to be really fair, I even used Aljazeera as a source).

I am afraid that you are once again making a false claim. I did not demand 'proof' of this. This is what I actually asked for 'Can you provide a link to the court procedings? Did they admit they lied or was that an assertion of the defence? It appears therefore that is we take your claim as true then the words of at least some IDF soldiers appears to be suspect. Was any reason given for why they lied?' There simply is no demand for 'proof' anywhere there.

I was advised that EJ Armstrong is not worth answering, and that seems to be true and I am therefore now adding him to my "ignore" list along with demon.

As you know my comment related to your repeated refusal to supply a link to support your own claim. In this post you have also chosen to misrepresent me by making false claims which I assume is deliberate.

On the basis that you seem to feel that misrepresenting others is an honest way to behave I am more than happy for you to take your ball home with you.

As you have now excluded yourself I really don't expect to see ya at all unless, like Randfan, you don't do what you claim you will.

BTW
Every group that makes a deal should stick to it. Hopefully when everyone in Palestine is treated like human beings, peace will eventually come.

 

[Cleon]

A) Cleon claims Israel "annexed" Jerusalem when it didn't - Israel gained control of East Jerusalem because of a war.

Whether Israel gained control of it during a war or not has nothing to do with annexation, which is the formal addition of territory to a country. Israel gained control of the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan, and East Jerusalem during the 1967 war. Israel annexed East Jerusalem--made it an official part of Israel. Israel did not do this with the WB, Gaza, or the Golan. This is a matter of historical record--denial of this is simply incorrect.

B) Cleon claims "ethnically exclusive jewish colonies" which is a strawman because they are housing subdivisions not "colonies" - that is obvious rhetoric.

Sorry, that's just stupid.

C) Cleon claims the Israeli right wing somehow maintains the IDF military occupation in a conspiracy to "annex the West Bank and Gaza". Which is ridiculous.

Of course--Moledet, Shas, and the Netanyahu wing of Likud are just figments of my imagination. The idea that Israel maintains the settlements and the occupation as some sort of "defensive" response makes so much more sense.

D) Cleon claims settlers are "right-wing racist lunatics", when in fact he has no clue how many are racist or right-wing lunatics.

Are you joking? Even compared to you these people are fruitcakes. These are the people who built a monument to Baruch frikking Goldstein! Dude, watch a movie called "Promises" sometime. Or check out "Mr. TV's" documentary. Hell, spend some time around them like I did. These people are nuts!

E) Cleon claims "the people who actually lived there" never refered to judea and samaria.... yet he has no first-hand knowledge of this, he can provide no evidence for this and he lays zero foundation for this claim.

Well, except for the glaring lack of the words "Judea" or "Samaria" in the Arabic language, or used among the Palestinian people...

So Mycroft provided some old maps from 1598 to 1867 which have the words judea or samaria on them, yet the Fool and Cleon attempt to dismiss all these maps as "christian european maps". They must have good reason to use those names on maps over the course of 300 years.

Erm, they are Christian, European maps, aren't they? (Your first clue should be that prior to the British occupation post-WWI, English was not widely spoken in Palestine.) And, unless currently recognized historical and archaeological evidence is way wrong, the folks living in "Judea" and "Samaria" at the time where neither Christian nor European.

Cleon makes repeated claims that are; A) not true

You need to understand that "not true" is not synonymous with "zenith-nadir doesn't like it."

 

[demon]

Webconfusion:
"I was advised that EJ Armstrong is not worth answering, and that seems to be true and I am therefore now adding him to my "ignore" list along with demon."

Yawn, yes, so you keep saying.
You also have the crimes of Zionism, the IDF, and the Israeli regime on your ignore list...considering the magnitude of those, it`s a wonder you have room on your ignore list for anything else.

 

[Mycroft]

Getting back on topic

PA Refused to Stop Suicide Bombers; Two Were Freed by Israel

The PA helped a suicide bomb gang by refusing to arrest them and asking Israel to pardon them. Israel released from jail or custody two of the Arab terrorists who almost succeeded to attack.

As previously reported, Israeli defense forces arrested five Islamic Jihad terrorists hours before they planned to stage a double suicide bombing attack in the suburban Jerusalem neighborhood Ramot on Thursday. Their targets were a coffee house or synagogue and a city bus.

Israel prevented the suicide bombing only days after Palestinian Authority (PA) chairman Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) told ABC television that the days of suicide bombing are over. "We stopped the culture of violence," he told the interviewer, who asked him if suicide bombings are a tactic of the past. "I believe it is over," Abu Mazen responded.

But the Palestinian Authority (PA) actually aided and abetted the gang, according to information released by the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. It quoted a Ynet news report that General Security Services (Shin Bet) informed the PA of the planned suicide bombing, named the terrorists, and repeatedly asked the PA to arrest them. The response not only was negative but PA security officials also asked Israel to remove the terrorists from the wanted list.

http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=83258

So informed of a planned suicide-bombing, the PA declines to do anything about it.