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Windows 11

a_unique_person said:
The thing I hate about Linux is all the distros and the way so many distros and components just turn into abandonware.
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Much like Macs, it's the evangelists that get me. I know what I want my PC to do, I'm pretty good at building them and diagnosing problems. I've tried Linux for a few things and ran into a few issues and immediately get told that it must be my hardware being exotic or that I'm using the wrong distro.

It always seems to end up like the Alt-Med community. Linux doesn't fail you, you fail Linux.
 
Segnosaur said:
Do you have any evidence that "most people" end up switching back to Windows after trying Linux? Got any context for that? (Were these people who actually made concerted efforts to use Linux, or just threw Linux on some old computer, saw "that works", but then stopped right there?)

A big, long, poorly formatted article. It has a few things that are correct, a few things that are misleading, and a few things that are wrong.

And it should be noted that the article itself included the following statement:

I want to make one thing crystal clear - Windows, in some regards, is even worse than Linux and it has its own share of critical problems.

So even the author isn't quite as anti-Linux as you might think.

I had no problem with Win7. (Much prefer it to the interface that was part of Win8, or certain versions of Win Server.) But, Microsoft dropped support for that years ago.
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I'm myself an IT person and I used Linux for a couple of years, so I know what I'm talking about. From my experience Linux distros seem to be "almost there" around 95% of polish. The remaining 5% of polishing is never done. So if an IT person switched to Windows, I don't even know what to say about normal non technical users.

Regarding to Windows being worse in some regards, I didn't argue that it's perfect, for example Windows registry doesn't isolate application settings and after uninstalling applications there are often leftovers that can sometimes cause nasty things. The updates are very slow especially on older versions of Windows and HDD. NTFS fragmentation isn't solved, although we are moving to SSDs, so the problem is moot.

But despite that Windows largely works out of the box and works well if you don't mess with its guts. Also Windows has an excellent backward compatibility, most properly written GUI applications from Win 95 era still run on Windows 11. Linux? Good luck running 3+ years old GUI applications on your modern distro.
 
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Darat said:
Sounds sensible.
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I think adding the hurdle of a manual install for non-compliant machines is as far as they'll go, and indeed this will likely scare most users with older machines into upgrading their hardware. I expect MS will allow updates for any Win11 installation, though.

I'm not that concerned, because I have only one older machine that I use Windows on. I'll upgrade the other machines, because I'm a hobbyist, and system fiddling is what I do.
 
eerok said:
I think adding the hurdle of a manual install for non-compliant machines is as far as they'll go, and indeed this will likely scare most users with older machines into upgrading their hardware. I expect MS will allow updates for any Win11 installation, though.



I'm not that concerned, because I have only one older machine that I use Windows on. I'll upgrade the other machines, because I'm a hobbyist, and system fiddling is what I do.
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I agree 100%. If you can't do something useful, fiddle with it.
 
a_unique_person said:
The thing I hate about Linux is all the distros and the way so many distros and components just turn into abandonware.
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Yes, Abandonware happens with Linux. And it is frustrating.

But, is it really much different than the Windows environment, where companies stop issuing updates to their software? I mean, for some of the stuff I do in Windows, I'm completely happy using Win7.... its stable enough, does what I need, etc. But Microsoft is ending support for it, so it will eventually become a security risk and I will be forced to upgrade.

Mongrel said:
Much like Macs, it's the evangelists that get me. I know what I want my PC to do, I'm pretty good at building them and diagnosing problems. I've tried Linux for a few things and ran into a few issues and immediately get told that it must be my hardware being exotic or that I'm using the wrong distro.
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Yes, hardware compatibility is an issue with Linux, and those with new/high-end video cards, etc. may have trouble getting things to work well.

But the same thing happens in Windows too. (I seem to remember one of the earlier versions of Windows... think it was Win7, being heavily criticized for its lack of driver support.)

And remember, we're in a thread about Win11, where its been posted that "It won't work right unless you have a brand new computer". Seems like kind of a double standard... "Look how bad Linux is with certain hardware. So we'll just go install this Microsoft product that... is really bad at handling certain hardware".
 
suren said:
Do you have any evidence that "most people" end up switching back to Windows after trying Linux? Got any context for that? (Were these people who actually made concerted efforts to use Linux, or just threw Linux on some old computer, saw "that works", but then stopped right there?)
...
And it should be noted that the article itself included the following statement:
I want to make one thing crystal clear - Windows, in some regards, is even worse than Linux and it has its own share of critical problems.
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I'm myself an IT person and I used Linux for a couple of years, so I know what I'm talking about.
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But you made a specific claim about "most people who tried Linux switch back to Windows/Mac". That's a pretty specific claim, and not something that should be based on "Well, I tried it so I automatically know what others will do".
From my experience Linux distros seem to be "almost there" around 95% of polish. The remaining 5% of polishing is never done.
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What exactly is "polishing"? Sounds pretty... vague to me. (Just because something works differently in Linux than it does in Windows doesn't mean its not "polished".)

And do you really think Windows itself is "polished"? I've certainly spent a lot of time hunting through various windows/sub-windows in Windows, looking for certain options. And remember, Window's "Polish" once gave us Win8, with a GUI that was almost completely scrapped in the next windows version.

So if an IT person switched to Windows, I don't even know what to say about normal non technical users.
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Your "non-technical" user probably isn't going to be doing any of their own maintenance anyways. (I have certainly done my share of maintenance on the Windows computers of friends and family.) And once their computer is set up and running? Their experience will probably be no different than that of a Windows/Mac user. "Can I open up a web browser to look at facebook/my banking/pr0n? I can? good."

Regarding to Windows being worse in some regards, I didn't argue that it's perfect, for example Windows registry doesn't isolate application settings and after uninstalling applications
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And I never claimed that Linux was better than Windows in all situations... some limited software options, lack of driver support in some cases, etc. are all problems with Linux.

My complaint is the double standard... people criticizing Linux for problems that exist in Windows.
But despite that Windows largely works out of the box and works well if you don't mess with its guts.
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I think the problem is that weasel-word "largely" works out of the box.

I currently have Linux running on an HP Elitebook laptop, a Dell Lattitude laptop, a Lenovo Thinkpad, a Dell Optiplex, and an older Dell desktop machine (not sure what type it is, but it originally had WinXP.) This is in addition to multiple installations of Linux as Virtual Machines. All of those installations worked fine "out of the box". All hardware was recognized by the OS at installation time. All of those machines are stable and do what I need.

On the other hand, when I originally tried to install Windows on one of the desktop machines, it couldn't recognize the ethernet card. I have had problems with Windows 10 VMs unexpectedly flaking out and becoming CPU bound. And when I tried to plug in a USB Webcam on a friend's Win10 machine, it just locked up. If I was relying only on my "own experience" I'd have to say that Windows seems to have more problems "out of the box" than Linux.

Now, I do recognize that my experience would not be typical of all users. Different hardware, different versions of Linux/Windows, etc. will all mean that both Windows and Linux installations will occasionally have problems, but in different circumstances. Just don't condemn Linux or claim Windows is somehow better "out of the box" when your results are probably based as much on chance combinations of hardware/software than they are on actual Windows stability.
Also Windows has an excellent backward compatibility
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Yet we're in a thread about Win11, an upgrade which may not run on older hardware (if at all). Doesn't sound like great "backwards compatibility".
most properly written GUI applications from Win 95 era still run on Windows 11.
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More weasel words with the "properly written" GUI applications? If something isn't backwards compatible, just write it off as "not properly written"?

By the way, I've encountered programs (from even the WinXP era, never mind Win95) that simply won't run on later versions of Windows. Granted, I didn't try them on Windows 11, but I figure if something fails on Windows 7 or 8, Windows 11 won't be much better.
Linux? Good luck running 3+ years old GUI applications on your modern distro.
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I have used older software on newer versions of Linux.

Admittedly I don't do that often. Its probably not as critical, since so much Linux software is open source that you can get newer versions of software for free, and/or is prepackaged with the OS (as compared to Windows... "Your software X won't run after your OS upgrade? Give us money and will give you the new version!")

If there are issues, its probably not the age, but the existence of different Linux Windowing systems (Gnome vs KDE) and/or package managers (RPMs vs DEBs). But, your average (non-technical) user wouldn't be bothering with those anyways (just as they probably wouldn't be bothering with dealing with MSIs and ISOs on Windows), and your technical user/support person would be smart enough to pick the right options.
 
Segnosaur said:
Yes, hardware compatibility is an issue with Linux, and those with new/high-end video cards, etc. may have trouble getting things to work well.

But the same thing happens in Windows too. (I seem to remember one of the earlier versions of Windows... think it was Win7, being heavily criticized for its lack of driver support.)

And remember, we're in a thread about Win11, where its been posted that "It won't work right unless you have a brand new computer". Seems like kind of a double standard... "Look how bad Linux is with certain hardware. So we'll just go install this Microsoft product that... is really bad at handling certain hardware".
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Look how bad Linux is with certain hardware NOW. So we'll just go install this Microsoft product that has driver support from the manufacturer right now... but was really bad at handling certain hardware some time ago, probably as I but can't quite remember :rolleyes:
 
Mongrel said:
Yes, hardware compatibility is an issue with Linux, and those with new/high-end video cards, etc. may have trouble getting things to work well.

But the same thing happens in Windows too. (I seem to remember one of the earlier versions of Windows... think it was Win7, being heavily criticized for its lack of driver support.)

And remember, we're in a thread about Win11, where its been posted that "It won't work right unless you have a brand new computer". Seems like kind of a double standard... "Look how bad Linux is with certain hardware. So we'll just go install this Microsoft product that... is really bad at handling certain hardware".
Click to expand...
Look how bad Linux is with certain hardware NOW. So we'll just go install this Microsoft product that has driver support from the manufacturer right now... but was really bad at handling certain hardware some time ago, probably as I but can't quite remember :rolleyes:
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Yes, its been several years and details have become fuzzy. But, even if you don't remember yourself or you don't believe me, you can easily find cases where even Windows 10 has had problems with hardware. You have an AMD SCSI Driver provided by Microsoft that was making computers unable to boot.. You had Intel drivers that were disabling audio. There are reports of users having problems with nvidia graphics . And that's just after a short web search.

Now, does any of this mean "Gosh, Windows can't handle hardware"? No, it just goes to show that software and operating systems are complex, and the fact that occasional problems occur doesn't mean that a particular operating system (be it Windows or Linux) is somehow fundamentally flawed just because some combination of hardware, software and Operating system has unexpected problems.

And, then of course there is the post 243 from eerok, where he posts the following:
You Can Install Windows 11 on Unsupported Hardware, But You Might Not Want To (lifehacker.com)
The upshot is that you can install Win11 on a non-qualifying PC from an ISO, but you might not be able to get updates in the future.

Got a computer that may be a year or 2 old but you are still more than happy with its performance? In a few years (after Microsoft drops support for Win10), you might not be able to easily upgrade to Win11, and if you do you may not get full support. Sounds like a pretty darn big hardware compatibility issue to me.

Windows users will head over to their local computer shop to plunk down hundreds of dollars on a new computer, not because their old computer was broke or wasn't fast enough, but because Microsoft made the decision to focus their efforts on newer hardware. This will seem totally normal to them. (I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with that approach, just don't brag about how "Windows is great with hardware compatibility" afterwards.)

Meanwhile, I will likely be able to obtain at least some Linux distro that continues to be updated with security patches and other changes, and run it on older computers long after Microsoft has stopped updating Win10.
 
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I can run current Linux distros on 32-bit hardware. Not very many distros, admittedly, and not the most popular (Ubuntu), and you wouldn't want to use that machine for anything other that web browsing, basically, but it's possible.

Windows, on the other hand, doesn't support it (not unreasonably, in my opinion; there's no value for Microsoft in doing so).

For Windows 11, I can see both sides of the debate. On the one hand, as a developer you want to cut out old stuff that's problematic, both from a security and a maintenance standpoint; on the other hand, as a user that forces replacing things that are working just fine.
 
Segnosaur said:
Yes, its been several years and details have become fuzzy. But, even if you don't remember yourself or you don't believe me, you can easily find cases where even Windows 10 has had problems with hardware. You have an AMD SCSI Driver provided by Microsoft that was making computers unable to boot.. You had Intel drivers that were disabling audio. There are reports of users having problems with nvidia graphics . And that's just after a short web search.
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Both of those instance are drivers provided by the manufacturers, they're not created by Microsoft, and are provided through the "optional updates" so are not downloaded automatically. How is this a Windows problem?

Vs
My current gen AMD Radeon GPU is not supported natively in Linux. I have a display but lose functionality as my 2nd monitor is blank and would probably lose a ton of FPS if I tried to play games.
And, then of course there is the post 243 from eerok, where he posts the following:
You Can Install Windows 11 on Unsupported Hardware, But You Might Not Want To (lifehacker.com)
The upshot is that you can install Win11 on a non-qualifying PC from an ISO, but you might not be able to get updates in the future.
Click to expand...
I posted a link to a Linus Tech Tips video back in post 182 that said substantially the same thing. But if you're competent enough to fiddle with that then you're probably competent enough to foresee the repercussions

Got a computer that may be a year or 2 old but you are still more than happy with its performance? In a few years (after Microsoft drops support for Win10), you might not be able to easily upgrade to Win11, and if you do you may not get full support. Sounds like a pretty darn big hardware compatibility issue to me.

Windows users will head over to their local computer shop to plunk down hundreds of dollars on a new computer, not because their old computer was broke or wasn't fast enough, but because Microsoft made the decision to focus their efforts on newer hardware. This will seem totally normal to them. (I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with that approach, just don't brag about how "Windows is great with hardware compatibility" afterwards.)
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No one I know feels the need to run out and buy a PC just because they want to upgrade to Win 11, there are no 'killer apps' lined up for it, even Win 10 had DirectX 12 for the gamers.
The majority of home users, in my experience, will run whatever their PC is until it breaks and then replace it, they probably don't even know that there's a new Windows version coming soon or that support for their OS shrivelled up 5 years ago. The reason Microsoft added Secure Boot and TPM compliance was to boost security at the hardware level as most users only care when they get infected, I rely on auto-updates for family members because I know they won't do it themselves.
 
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My current PC is about nine years old now. [emoji15]

I have upgraded :-

Windows once. From 7 to 10.
Upgraded the CPU once. I3 to I7
Memory from 4 GB to 16 GB
Disk about five times.
Power supply once.
Still got the same POS case.
The MSI motherboard has carried on without missing a beat. I bought a good one with plenty of spare slots and USB ports. After years of hating the nasty but cheap junk MSI churned out for years this has been built really well.

When I move to Win 11 the hardware will be in need of a major upgrade anyway.
 
a_unique_person said:
My current PC is about nine years old now. [emoji15]

I have upgraded :-

Windows once. From 7 to 10.
Upgraded the CPU once. I3 to I7
Memory from 4 GB to 16 GB
Disk about five times.
Power supply once.
Still got the same POS case.
The MSI motherboard has carried on without missing a beat. I bought a good one with plenty of spare slots and USB ports. After years of hating the nasty but cheap junk MSI churned out for years this has been built really well.
Click to expand...
Theseus would be proud.

Wikipedia
 
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