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Why not war against Islam?

And you also said you never heard of Spencer, after berating those of us who haven't read his books. Actually, I believe you. You have indeed "never heard of" much of the material posted over your name. The person telling us to read the books may well not be the same person as the one who never heard of the guy, although they post in the same name. They have very different linguistic competence, for one thing.

But that's your problem, not mine.

However, I ask again, is your "fair warning" about my "criminal" behaviour a problem for me? Not very friendly talk, Bill.
 
Why is a web site of the Quran a hate site?
When did I say that RObert Spenser is a hero of mine? I don't even know who he is.

Ah, well. But what about the threats? Do these originate from the Bill who doesn't know who Robert Spencer is, or the one who does? The one who does is really creepy!

Were #1087 and #1088 above really written by the same person? The first is full of sub Freudian psychobabble, but expressed in reasonably elegant literary style; and the second talks about it all being between my ears, man. Weird.

Guys, get your act together. I wanna know who's acomin' for me!
 
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It is like you are living in a world of your own creation. I quoted the quran, not Robert Whomever. And now it seems you even say you do not even know where I get my information. Here are the quoted from the Quran.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.076
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.060
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.073
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.134
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.033
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.026
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.015
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/058.qmt.html#058.020
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.038
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.193
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.052
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.060
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.041
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.044
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.027
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#004.053.392
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.055
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.095

That is the QURAN, man. You have got some serious issues, my "friend".

I do not understand you.

Those are not the only links you've given. And they don't support your argument.
 
Does not say that Robert Spenser is a hero of mine. It does not say that I admire him. Hell, it does not even say that I have read one of his books. A question is just a question is just a question. I am only asking a question.

Since you're ignoring Craig, I'll point out that mentioning Robert Spencer by name and in an appropriate context:

Do you think that by Ibn Warraq and Robert Spencer are bascially full of it and liars? Have you read any of their books? Do you think they are wrong when they say that Islam is a threat to Western Culture, or way of life, science in general and the well being and survival or our species? Is all that a lie?

... is very, very strong evidence that you have heard of Robert Spencer.

Which makes this a little suspect:

When did I say that RObert Spenser is a hero of mine? I don't even know who he is.

Craig, you are a liar.




In fact EACH ONE OF THE SENTENCES IN THE QUOTE THAT YOU HAVE OF ME ARE JUST QUESTIONS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EVIL QUESTION. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION EITHER.

But there is such a thing as a loaded question.
 
It is like you are living in a world of your own creation. I quoted the quran, not Robert Whomever. And now it seems you even say you do not even know where I get my information. Here are the quoted from the Quran.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.076
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.060
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.073
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.134
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.033
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.026
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.015
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/058.qmt.html#058.020
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.038
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.193
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.052
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.060
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/013.qmt.html#013.041
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.044
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.027
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#004.053.392
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html#024.055
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.095

That is the QURAN, man. You have got some serious issues, my "friend".

I do not understand you.

You have pretty much zero idea what those passages mean to actual practicing Muslims of any sort. No, not even the extremist ones.

All you know is what Spencer and Gellar and the lunatics at thereligionofpeace.com tell you they have to mean in order for their (and your) views of Islam as a big giant threatening and monolithic block to be true.
 
Folks...please keep your posts civil/polite and address the argument vs attack the arguer. I'll be going through this thread to do a general clean out....
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
Interesting. Do you think the "war on poverty" was about killing poor people?

Then why single out Muslims? Why not concern yourself with convincing people to turn away from superstition in general? The Bible contains horrible passages that some Jews and Christians still believe should guide the lives of everyone. Why aren't you calling for Jews and Christians to be freed from their religions too?

And it's funny that you should mention poverty, because poverty is probably a far more influential factor as a cause of extremism than religion is. When the situation is reversed, when the Muslim population is relatively comfortable and well educated and the Christian population is impoverished and undereducated, we see that the Muslims are quite moderate while the Christians become more radical.
 
Then why single out Muslims? Why not concern yourself with convincing people to turn away from superstition in general? The Bible contains horrible passages that some Jews and Christians still believe should guide the lives of everyone. Why aren't you calling for Jews and Christians to be freed from their religions too?

And it's funny that you should mention poverty, because poverty is probably a far more influential factor as a cause of extremism than religion is. When the situation is reversed, when the Muslim population is relatively comfortable and well educated and the Christian population is impoverished and undereducated, we see that the Muslims are quite moderate while the Christians become more radical.

Arguably the most effective thing to reduce violence in Islam is to increase prosperity in Muslim nations. Maybe target the places with the greatest abuses for the most attention. It should go without saying that aid that is not effective in improving conditions isn't aid at all.

Or maybe we should focus on education. Dawkins has pointed out that Spain translates more books into Spanish than the entire Muslim world translates into Arabic. Maybe we could translate a lot of good books into Arabic. Books on science, agriculture, economics, history, and so forth.

Along those lines, Muslim schools have a crying need for non-Wahabbist Islamic teaching materials, maybe we should be helping out with that. We can hardly blame Muslim schools with limited resources for settling for Wahabbist materials when Saudi Arabia is making them so readily available.
 
I get my opinion about 9-11 from Muslims I chatted with after 9-11 who still regarded Osama bin Laden as a champion of Islam.
Even if we entertain this uncorroborated second-hand account as evidence, so what? I can find Christians in my own state who think that Jesus wants northern European ethnic groups to have dominion over ethnic groups with dark skin. I can find Christians who think that women are inferior to men and should always be under the authority of men. I can find Christians who think that homosexuality, or even pre-marital sex, should be crimes punishable under civil law. Your chats with a few Muslims don't amount to an indictment of the whole of Islam.

Most Muslims don't know this stuff that, if taken literally, the Quran clearly calls upon Osama bin Laden to do what he did. And if this is true, you cannot blame 9-11 on just a bad bunch of people with bad hearts.
The Quran also states that it is wrong to kill innocent non-combatants like the elderly, women and children. Osama bin Laden clearly ignored that part.

And, yes, Islam demands that the the Quran to be interpeted literally. It is not a book of poems where you can interpret it in any way you imagine.
Please show us where the Bible states "this is just a book of poems that should in no way be taken literally". Many Christians believe that the Bible is to be interpreted literally and many of them are ignorant of the horrifying commands of said book.
 
This used to be a place where people could have serious discussions. Now it is full of people who would think the "war on poverty" would actually mean killing poor people like mowing down a housing project with a minigun..

My friend, you have called for a war against Islam & for Islam to cease to exist. You have attacked Muslims and not just Islam, in various posts.

We all must take responsibility for our own words.

You have refused to express exactly what you wish to do to eradicate Islam from the Earth. You refuse to state what you would do with Muslims in the West who refuse to leave their faith.

These are the facts.
 
This used to be a place where people could have serious discussions. Now it is full of people who would think the "war on poverty" would actually mean killing poor people like mowing down a housing project with a minigun.

That is all you. I don't think that way. You think that this would be what the war on poverty would mean. Not me. So, good luck with you sick fantasies.

You are obviously deeply out of your element, intellectually speaking. Do you have anything to say about my comment regarding the role of poverty vs. any specific religion as pertains to extremism? Are you capable of having a serious discussion?
 
Bill argues that the snippets from the Qur'an that he linked to prove how bad Islam is, because the Qur'an has to be "taken literally", and there is no such thing as "interpretation" of the Qur'an. But the issue is not nearly as simple or black and white as the Islamophobic websites he cribs from make it out to be.

Take, for instance, the centuries-old tradition of tafsir, the many exegetical works that explain, interpret, and comment on the Qur'an (tafsir comes from the word fassara, which means to explain or interpret - someone who comments on the Qur'an in a tafsir is called a mufassir).

Or the distinction made between tafsir, which is used to explain the "outer" or zahir meaning of the Qur'an, and ta'wil, which explains the "inner" or hidden (batin) meaning of the Qur'an. Especially since Sufis and Shia sects like the Isma'ilis make quite a bit of this distinction and believe that the obvious interpretation of the Qur'an is often not the correct interpretation.

And then there's the method of interpretation favored by scholars like the 13th-century Ibn Arabi, who argued that every possible linguistic interpretation of the Qur'an is correct (albeit not necessarily equally correct).

Complicating things is the fact that the Qur'an itself says that some of the verses contained with in it are mukham (or "clear"), while others are mutashabih (or "ambiguous").

This results in things like the varying interpretations of, to take an example I've actually pointed out in this very thread, 2:190-194.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

Yusuf Ali, whose translation I quote above, in his tafsir interprets the above verses to mean that Muslims are commanded to fight only if they are attacked and/or prevented from exercising their faith.

Asad says the same thing, specifically noting that unless Muslims are attacked, they're not allowed to fight against even states where Muslims live but that are ruled by non-Muslims, as long as Muslims living in those countries can worship unmolested.

In the 15th century tafsir of "the two Jalals" (so named because it was written by Jalal al-Din al-Maḥalli and his student Jalal al-Din al-Suyuṭi), the admonition not to be aggressors is said to have been abrogated, and unbelievers should be slain and expelled unless they convert to Islam. However, they also specifically describe this in the context of the idolators in and around Mecca who had originally expelled Muhammad and the early Muslims.

Tabataba'i in his tafsir makes this context an explicit and essential part of his interpretation of those verses, saying that they are specifically and solely about permission to fight the Qurayshi idolators in Mecca, and since there aren't any Qurayshi idolators in Mecca any more, those verses (while still technically in force) are irrelevant and inapplicable today.

And finally, Maududi interprets those verses in a much broader way, saying that while individuals don't have to convert to Islam, the fighting should continue until "political domination and legal sovereignty of unbelievers is eradicated" - ie, non-Muslims don't have to become Muslims, but they aren't allowed to be in charge of the state.

So...which of these interpretations is the "literal" meaning of those verses, Bill? And if "interpretation" isn't allowed, why do all the above differ so much from each other, and in some cases are almost diametrically opposed interpretations of the exact same passages of the Qur'an?
 
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Bill argues that the snippets from the Qur'an that he linked to prove how bad Islam is,...

If we judged a religion simply by the most extreme and worst snippets found in a religion's holy texts, certainly all Western religions would seem Satanic and sadistic, and possibly all religions on Earth.

Quote-mining is a poor way to judge a faith. Basing one's views on the acts of a tiny minority of followers is a poor way to judge a faith.

But its certainly a great way to judge a faith if you are bigoted against the faith and seek its destruction and its followers converted against their will.
 
From 8 Aug. Who's the liar? And another reference to him was deleted by the editor from Bill's cut 'n paste hate site material. By the way, that's what I mean by Ibn Warraq unfortunately finding himself in bad company.
Edited by Cleon: 

Membership agreement breach removed.
 
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Bill argues that the snippets from the Qur'an that he linked to prove how bad Islam is, because the Qur'an has to be "taken literally"....

That is not the issue. The issue is that there will always be a new Osama-bin-Laden-like person who will take it literally.
 
That is not the issue. The issue is that there will always be a new Osama-bin-Laden-like person who will take it literally.

And there will always be Vernon Wayne Howells and Eric Robert Rudolphs who will take their texts literally. So, again, why should we focus on Islam as a potential threat, but not Christianity? You've lamented that you can't have a reasonable discussion on this forum, yet here I am attempting to have a reasonable discussion with you and I am being ignored.
 
I have gone through the last 5 pages or so, and moved posts that were in breach of rule 0, rule 11, rule 12; they can be found here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217797

If you have a question as to why your post was moved, or why a post was not moved, you are welcome to IM me, post the question in FM, or file an Appeal (instruction on how to do so can be found in your Membership Agreement).

Please keep the discussion civil/polite, on topic, and address the argument vs attack the arguer.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 

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