Why Europe Hates israel

armageddonman said:
Let's say that the only border that counts for the UN is the border that has been recognized by the UN. If Israel disagrees, it should either step out of the UN or annex the occupied territories.

Okay, where does the UN state the borders?

armageddonman said:
Then why has Israel not naturalised the people who are living there?

Because they are led by the PLO, who's stated goal is to destroy Israel. If it were not for that, I think naturalization and annexation would be a great solution. Then again, if it were not for that, you could pick among any number of solutions. One state, two states, a bi-national state...it wouldn't matter.
 
Mycroft said:
Okay, where does the UN state the borders?

israel_map.gif



Because they are led by the PLO, who's stated goal is to destroy Israel. If it were not for that, I think naturalization and annexation would be a great solution. Then again, if it were not for that, you could pick among any number of solutions. One state, two states, a bi-national state...it wouldn't matter. [/B]

Sources for that claim? Or is that your personal opinion?

Have the Palaestinieas been led by the PLO before the Israel "owned" their land?
 
Mycroft said:
Okay, where does the UN state the borders?



Because they are led by the PLO, who's stated goal is to destroy Israel. If it were not for that, I think naturalization and annexation would be a great solution. Then again, if it were not for that, you could pick among any number of solutions. One state, two states, a bi-national state...it wouldn't matter.

You know that isn't on the agenda. The demographics mean that in a few years, the Jews would be a minority. No more Jewish state. All that effort for nothing.
 
That's a map, yes, is it a UN map? It looks like it's from some Canadian news station. It's very pretty, I like the colours.

Originally posted by armageddonman

Sources for that claim? Or is that your personal opinion?

Have the Palaestinieas been led by the PLO before the Israel "owned" their land?

The part that was my personal opinion was labeled as such. The PLO goals of destroying Israel is a matter of public record, easily looked up. You can google "PLO charter" to get the exact text. If you're going to do that, you might as well look up the Hamas charter as well. The PLO was formed in 1964, three years before Israel captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Does the PLO lead the Palestinian-Arabs? Well, they've always claimed they did. Back in '93 Israel did recognize them as the leaders and they became the Palestinian Authority. It is the official government now.
 
a_unique_person said:
You know that isn't on the agenda. The demographics mean that in a few years, the Jews would be a minority. No more Jewish state. All that effort for nothing.

If it were not for the state of hostility between these two peoples, demographics wouldn't be important.

Besides, demographic projections never come true.
 
Mycroft said:
If it were not for the state of hostility between these two peoples, demographics wouldn't be important.

Besides, demographic projections never come true.

Just going on current trends. The Palestinian birth rate is higher than the Jewish birth rate, and there are already large non Jewish populations in Israel.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that that is the way the trends are heading.

And if black was white....., but the hostility is there, and always was going to be there. I think that Oslo had a real chance, but my guess is that another break through like that is not going to be coming along for a while.
 
Mycroft said:
Does the PLO lead the Palestinian-Arabs? Well, they've always claimed they did. Back in '93 Israel did recognize them as the leaders and they became the Palestinian Authority. It is the official government now.

Since the 1967 border is from 1967, why did Israel not annex the territories back then?

And why does the Israeli Supreme Court call these terrotories "occupied" if they are not occupied according to you?
 
Ion said:
...in 1998 in favor of transfer of Israeli civilians to occupied territories? That's the quote in Article 49 that I highlighted.
In 1998 Sharon was not the policy maker of the Israeli government, nor was he even Prime Minister. So whatever he said or did not say has absolutely nothing to do with Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Ion said:
That quote in Article 49, that's the one that Sharon in the name of Israel is breaching, when speaking and also when giving money incentives to the civilian occupiers from Israel.
Article 49 is very clear, the words "tax breaks and grants" do not appear in Article 49 therefore tax breaks and grants have absolutely nothing to do with Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

(2nd time) : Tell me Ion, since you rely completely on the Geneva Convention when did Arafat and the Palestinian Authority sign the Geneva Convention that you have chosen to protect them with? How about Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Fateh, AL Aksa Martyrs Brigades, when did they sign the Geneva Convention?

Demon said:
So you believe in "evil" eh? My, you really are a bible puncher. Any other metaphysical qualities/entities you`d like to mention?
A bible puncher, ya.. that's me to a tee Demon, you are obviously master of the obvious.

a_unique_person said:
I think that Oslo had a real chance, but my guess is that another break through like that is not going to be coming along for a while.
Let's visit the Oslo accords. The Oslo accords were principals agreed to by Israel and the PLO. Mainly, Israel would withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank in return the PLO would renounce terrorism, accept Israel's right to exsist and create the Palestinian Authority.

Well one can go to the Palestinian National Authority website today ( link here ) and see that the PLO Charter remains as is was written in 1968. The real comedy part is the amendments at the bottom which claim "In a letter to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Yasser Arafat stated that those articles which denied Israel's right to exist or are inconsistent with the PLO's new commitments to Israel following their mutual reognition, were no longer valid (see Oslo peace process)". Yet the articles still appear unamended over a decade later, to this very day, on the official Palestinian National Authority website, and I have provided a link to prove it. So either they are not valid and should be removed or amended or they are still valid and remain unamended. You can't tell me if they were amended that they cannot appear amended on the Palestinian National Authority website.

On May 15, 2004, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat addressed the Palestinian people (translation link here):
"The right of the refugees to return to their homeland Palestine is a sacred right protected by the U.N. resolutions. The hands of the Palestinian heroes, who stand fast, will fight for this right, against the occupation and against the Israeli settlements, and not only against this Israeli cancer. We will fight by means of the Palestinian hands against the aggression and against the racist fence of the annexation and the racist expansion, in defense of the places holy to the Muslims and Christians; 'and they [the Palestinians] are on the front line until Judgment Day.'...."In the name of Allah the Merciful and the Compassionate, 'Prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them [Koran 8:60].'..."Until our independent Palestinian state will be established, with holy Jerusalem as its capital.'"
Doesn't sound like Arafat believes the PLO Charter was amended eleven years after Oslo. And that is why Oslo failed.
 
armageddonman said:
Let's say that the only border that counts for the UN is the border that has been recognized by the UN. If Israel disagrees, it should either step out of the UN or annex the occupied territories.

Thanks for the clarification.

This is just another problem I see with the UN.

The UN has no authority over a sovereign nation unless either: 1.) a nation voluntarily submits to the will of the UN, or 2.) a nation is forced to submit to the will of the UN by a coalition of powerful countries.

Since neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis consider the UN a binding arbitrator, either voluntarily or due to pressure from the society of nations, the UN's views and opinions are, in reality, more or less meaningless.
 
Kodiak said:
The UN has no authority over a sovereign nation unless either: 1.) a nation voluntarily submits to the will of the UN, or 2.) a nation is forced to submit to the will of the UN by a coalition of powerful countries.

Then what is Israel whining about?
 
armageddonman said:
Then what is Israel whining about?

That's what I'm saying, those piece of sh!t jews should know their place. How dare they demand fair treatment.
 
Kodiak said:
Maybe the hate directed at it by Europe and the Middle East?

Reminding Israel that it breaks international law and asking it to stop does not seem hateful to me.

Btw. (Tony, you are addressed as well), if Europe hates Israel so much, how come that Europe gives millions each year to Israel and grants Israel special trade benefits ?

Is that something you do with a nation you hate?
 
armageddonman said:
Reminding Israel that it breaks international law and asking it to stop does not seem hateful to me.

Btw. (Tony, you are addressed as well), if Europe hates Israel so much, how come that Europe gives millions each year to Israel and grants Israel special trade benefits ?

Is that something you do with a nation you hate?

If you agree with me that what the UN thinks is meaningless in this case, as I've posited and you based your question "Then what is Israel whining about?" on, then what international law are you referring to??

Also, there's a big difference between official governmental support and public opinion and/or media opinion.
 
Kodiak said:
If you agree with me that what the UN thinks is meaningless in this case, as I've posited and you based your question "Then what is Israel whining about?" on, then what international law are you referring to??

No, I don't think that what the UN thinks is meanigless but since Israel apparently thinks so, why do Israeli officials whine about the verdict of the court in Den Haag?

Also, there's a big difference between official governmental support and public opinion and/or media opinion.

Tell me more about the European public/media opinion of Israel. And cite your sources please.
 
armageddonman said:
No, I don't think that what the UN thinks is meanigless but since Israel apparently thinks so, why do Israeli officials whine about the verdict of the court in Den Haag?
Easy. Because there has never been a Hague ruling or a Security Council resolution regarding islamofascist suicide bombings. The refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank are sponsored by UNRWA, ( (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East). So why does the U.N. allow terror groups to operate and attack Israel from within U.N. refugee camps? The UN created Israel and then abandoned it when it removed the UN Emergency Force stationed the Sinai in 1967.
 
Kodiak said:
Kodiak, me favorite right wing nut, how do the above links show that Europe hates Israel?

In other words, how does an opinion poll on which trouble spots on the Earth have the greatest potential for disrupting world peace, have to do with showing how the Europeans hate Israel?
 

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