Why Europe Hates israel

[plindboe]

Do you really think that the wall hasn't had anything to do with the decrease in Israeli citizens being murdered?

I think the assumption is too early and simplistic. The wall is far from finished.

The israelis have been quite busy in the past time, and the elimanation of the two most significant Hamas leaders could have had a significant impact as well.

I started a new thread about this, and am ready to be corrected if it turns out I'm wrong.

 

[Ion]

Do you really think that the wall hasn't had anything to do with the decrease in Israeli citizens being murdered?

Rafallini

once again, get this in your thick head:

Israel's wall is to be inside Israel.

Not stealing foreign land, outside Israel.

 

[armageddonman]

Do you really think that the wall hasn't had anything to do with the decrease in Israeli citizens being murdered?

It's amazing how you totally ignore all the posters who try to explain to you that no-one has any complaints about Israel building a wall to protect itself as long as it is not on occupied territory.

Btw. the same can be said about the Israeli officials who complain about the verdict: not one I have seen so far responded to that argument, all just whined how the world wants to prevent Israel from protecting itself.

As far as I concerned, they can build all the walls they want and put a lid on top, as long as they do it within Israel's internationally recognized borders.

But let me make a prediction: you as well as all Israeli officials and apologists will continue to ignore the fact that the verdict does not forbid Israel to protect itself by building a wall, but that building a wall on occupied territory is a breach of international law.

If i felt threatened by my neighbour and wanted to build a wall to protect myself, I had every right to do so, as long as I didn't build the wall straight through my neighour's yard.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's amazing how you totally ignore all the posters who try to explain to you that no-one has any complaints about Israel building a wall to protect itself as long as it is not on occupied territory.

That's nice and all, but why would Israel do that? What's the benefit for them? Will the world suddenly cozy up to Israel if they just did that? Of course not. The UN would be just as anti-Israel as ever, just a little quieter for the moment (but there's always something to condemn them about, while doing nothing substantive about the genocide of black muslims at the hands of arab muslims in Darfur). But at this point, that's so irrelevant to Israel that it's simply not going to be a deciding factor. All the UN EVER does with Israel is condemn it. If that weren't the case, if the UN actually helped Israel in substantive ways to ensure their security, they might be interested in listening. Short of that, the reality is the UN can go bite itself. You may not like that, but that's the reality of the situation.

Btw. the same can be said about the Israeli officials who complain about the verdict: not one I have seen so far responded to that argument, all just whined how the world wants to prevent Israel from protecting itself.

You're overlooking something even more basic which the Israelis *have* emphasised: the court has absolutely no jurisdiction in this case. Their decision is simply irrelevant, it has no more weight in this case than your opinion or mine, because Israel did not agree to have this dispute heard by the court. My local county court has about as much jurisdiction in this case.

 

[a_unique_person]

That's nice and all, but why would Israel do that? What's the benefit for them? Will the world suddenly cozy up to Israel if they just did that? Of course not. The UN would be just as anti-Israel as ever, just a little quieter for the moment (but there's always something to condemn them about, while doing nothing substantive about the genocide of black muslims at the hands of arab muslims in Darfur). But at this point, that's so irrelevant to Israel that it's simply not going to be a deciding factor. All the UN EVER does with Israel is condemn it. If that weren't the case, if the UN actually helped Israel in substantive ways to ensure their security, they might be interested in listening. Short of that, the reality is the UN can go bite itself. You may not like that, but that's the reality of the situation.

Nope, my estimation of Israel would be much higher if it did. But the wall demonstrates the whole point of the Israel/Palestine issue. The wall is one more element in the appropriation of the West Bank for Israel. Gaza is supposed to be subject to a strategic withdrawal, but the act of actually making some attempt at defining Israel's borders is producing a massive schism in Israel itself. The diehard extremists will not settle for the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza. They will accuse the government of siding with Arabs over Jews, and will try to win on that basis.


You're overlooking something even more basic which the Israelis *have* emphasised: the court has absolutely no jurisdiction in this case. Their decision is simply irrelevant, it has no more weight in this case than your opinion or mine, because Israel did not agree to have this dispute heard by the court. My local county court has about as much jurisdiction in this case. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Ion]

You too?

That's nice and all, but why would Israel do that? What's the benefit for them?...
...

The benefit to Israel is to defend the land behind that wall, like if that land was Israel's property.

The land behind that wall is not Israel's.

 

[Ion]

...
...You're overlooking something even more basic which the Israelis *have* emphasised: the court has absolutely no jurisdiction in this case. Their decision is simply irrelevant, it has no more weight in this case than your opinion or mine, because Israel did not agree to have this dispute heard by the court. My local county court has about as much jurisdiction in this case.

So you would steal land from you neighbor if you knew that it is disapproved but not enforceable?

I wouldn't, but I guess you and me we have different morals.

 

[a_unique_person]

Nope, my estimation of Israel would be much higher if it did. But the wall demonstrates the whole point of the Israel/Palestine issue. The wall is one more element in the appropriation of the West Bank for Israel. Gaza is supposed to be subject to a strategic withdrawal, but the act of actually making some attempt at defining Israel's borders is producing a massive schism in Israel itself. The diehard extremists will not settle for the withdrawal of settlements from Gaza. They will accuse the government of siding with Arabs over Jews, and will try to win on that basis.

 

[a_unique_person]

You're overlooking something even more basic which the Israelis *have* emphasised: the court has absolutely no jurisdiction in this case. Their decision is simply irrelevant, it has no more weight in this case than your opinion or mine, because Israel did not agree to have this dispute heard by the court. My local county court has about as much jurisdiction in this case.

But Isreal is builind the wall on land that it does not own, therefore it has no right to build the wall, and the ICJ has the right to rule on the wall. Build it in Israel, and they might hagve a point.

 

[armageddonman]

That's nice and all, but why would Israel do that?

If Israel cared about international law, it would comply to international law. If Israel does not want to comply to international law, it cannot complain about other countries breaking international law.

Short of that, the reality is the UN can go bite itself. You may not like that, but that's the reality of the situation.

If Israel thinks that the UN can bite itself, why does Israel not leave the UN? After all, there''s no obligation to be a member.

You're overlooking something even more basic which the Israelis *have* emphasised: the court has absolutely no jurisdiction in this case.

Of course it has.

Their decision is simply irrelevant, it has no more weight in this case than your opinion or mine, because Israel did not agree to have this dispute heard by the court. My local county court has about as much jurisdiction in this case.

So, since the court itself cannot enforce the decision, it's of no use? Have you ever heard of the division of powers? Courts don't enforce verdicts, that's the job of the police.

Apart from that, you should consider the basis of you own ethics. By your logic, it's OK to commit a crime as long as you can be sure you are not being prosecuted.

And apart from that, as predicted, you totally ignored the fact that the opposition to the wall has noting to do with "the world" trying to prevent Israel from defending itself but with the simple fact that Israel stole land to build the wall.

 

[Mycroft]

I guess this would be a good place to post an actual map of the security fence.

Map

 

[a_unique_person]

a more readable version.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Note how it does not just separate Israel from the West Bank, it is used to create Palestinian ghettoes. Why the infernal thing has to surround the Palestinian towns is totally beyond me, except that it is nothing more than a means of imprisoning a people. This is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

 

[BillyTK]

Do you really think that the wall hasn't had anything to do with the decrease in Israeli citizens being murdered?

Of course it has; all those Palestinians are being gainfully employed building the wall who would otherwise be launching terrorist attacks against Israel. I don't know why anti-wallists carnt see this.

 

[BillyTK]

a more readable version.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Note how it does not just separate Israel from the West Bank, it is used to create Palestinian ghettoes. Why the infernal thing has to surround the Palestinian towns is totally beyond me, [...]

Because Sharon would get itchy having Palestinians building inside Israel's borders?

 

[armageddonman]

a more readable version.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Note how it does not just separate Israel from the West Bank, it is used to create Palestinian ghettoes. Why the infernal thing has to surround the Palestinian towns is totally beyond me, except that it is nothing more than a means of imprisoning a people. This is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

The world's largest open-air prison. But protesting against that is of course anti-semitic and a denial of Israel's right of self-defense.

For once, I'd like to hear some good rethoric in the defense of the wall
.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The world's largest open-air prison. But protesting against that is of course anti-semitic and a denial of Israel's right of self-defense. For once, I'd like to hear some good rethoric in the defense of the wall.

The wall saves innocent lives from islamofascist suicide bombers. That is reason enough to keep it there until the terror stops. See the funny thing is armageddonman is that islamofacist terrorism from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fateh, Al Aksa does not single out only jews living in Israel, it effects men, women, teens, children, infants, christians, muslims, europeans, russians, africans, americans and just about any other religion or nationality that happens to be riding the Israeli bus that day, or eating in the Israeli restaurant that day or shopping in the Israeli mall that day.

Israel decided to build the wall after it realized that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority had no intention of stopping terror no matter how many peace treaties they signed. In fact Arafat and the Palestinian Authority finance and allow terror because Arafat is a terrorist and the Palestinian Authority is really still the PLO. The Palestinian Authority has never made the transition from terrorist organization to law-abiding responsible government. The U.N. and Europe refuse to accept that fact, but a fact it remains. Therefore Israel has had to take on the responsibility of A) protecting it's citizens and B) policing the West Bank and Gaza.

Had Arafat and the Palestinian Authority stopped terror in 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 or 2003 there would be no reason for a fence. As the Israeli government says "Terrorism is an obstacle to peace. The fence is an obstacle to terrorism".

 

[armageddonman]

I really should apply for the million dollars because as predicted, the fact that a wall in general has never been reason for complaint but it being built on occupied territory is, is being totally ignored again.

Tell me: why does Israel not build a wall on it's own territory?

I don't dispute Israel's right for self-defense and Israel's right to built a protective wall in any way, don't you get it?

What I object to is the fact that Israel builds a wall on territory that is not Israel's and thus breaks international law.

Get it? Get it?

 

[a_unique_person]

The wall saves innocent lives from islamofascist suicide bombers. That is reason enough to keep it there until the terror stops. See the funny thing is armageddonman is that islamofacist terrorism from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fateh, Al Aksa does not single out only jews living in Israel, it effects men, women, teens, children, infants, christians, muslims, europeans, russians, africans, americans and just about any other religion or nationality that happens to be riding the Israeli bus that day, or eating in the Israeli restaurant that day or shopping in the Israeli mall that day.

The wall puts innocent people in prison for life. It is inhuman. it does not separate, a wall to do that could have been built, it was not, a deliberate and considered choice.

 

[Ralph]

a more readable version.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Note how it does not just separate Israel from the West Bank, it is used to create Palestinian ghettoes. Why the infernal thing has to surround the Palestinian towns is totally beyond me, except that it is nothing more than a means of imprisoning a people. This is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

I think blowing up a schoolbus full of children is a crime against humanity of the highest order. Much more so than a wall which hasn't killed anybody and has actually prevented such acts from occuring.

Again--given the great concern you've always expressed for human life--I'd think you'd think of this as beneficial, not "the infernal thing".

My whole point is that the UN (along with the usual anti-semitic crowd here) seem to be placing far more emphasis on something which may be illegal---but hasn't killed anyone.

In the meantime--the UN glosses over the murder of civilians as was occuring BEFORE the wall went up.

I'd like to see them as up in arms about the Sudan as they are about Israel's wall too.

Those are the real crimes against humanity.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think blowing up a schoolbus full of children is a crime against humanity of the highest order. Much more so than a wall which hasn't killed anybody and has actually prevented such acts from occuring.

The schoolbus is a tragedy, there is no doubt of that. If you want to compare the number of children dead, however, as a means of comparing who awful the situation is over there, more Palestinian children have died.

The wall is not a wall of defense, however, it is a wall that imprisons. How bad a crime is it to condemn millions of children to a life in jail?

Again--given the great concern you've always expressed for human life--I'd think you'd think of this as beneficial, not "the infernal thing".

My whole point is that the UN (along with the usual anti-semitic crowd here) seem to be placing far more emphasis on something which may be illegal---but hasn't killed anyone.

In the meantime--the UN glosses over the murder of civilians as was occuring BEFORE the wall went up.

I'd like to see them as up in arms about the Sudan as they are about Israel's wall too.

Those are the real crimes against humanity.

It is not just illegal, it imprisons. It condemns children yet to be born to a life in jail.