Why Europe Hates israel

I try to avoid ME threads these days, but reading this one I have to chime in. AUP, Ion and armageddon have asked again and again and again why the wall has not been built on and within Internationally recognized borders of Israel, rather that in a convoluted pattern over territory that has not been formally annexed or considered part of Israel, even by that Government?

Zig tried to address it, but got distracted into an anti-UN rant. Still waiting to read a good reply.
 
Hutch said:
I try to avoid ME threads these days, but reading this one I have to chime in. AUP, Ion and armageddon have asked again and again and again why the wall has not been built on and within Internationally recognized borders of Israel, rather that in a convoluted pattern over territory that has not been formally annexed or considered part of Israel, even by that Government?

Zig tried to address it, but got distracted into an anti-UN rant. Still waiting to read a good reply.


You will not get an answer from the aopologists because they would have to agree that the wall has been illegaly built on occupied territory.
 
armageddonman said:
If Israel cared about international law, it would comply to international law. If Israel does not want to comply to international law, it cannot complain about other countries breaking international law.

You totally ducked my point: why SHOULD Israel care? When they complained about Palestinian terrorists using UN ambulances to hide in (an unambiguous violation of the Geneva convention), the UN, rather than trying to fix the problem, declared that it was offended that Israel would dare level such an accusation. Given this reality, that international law is never applied evenly with regard to Israel, what motive do they have to follow the dictates of countries that do not wish Israel well and many of whom openly call for its destruction? The fact that they can complain if they follow the rules? Are you seriously suggesting that *complaining* about Hamas' violations of the Geneva convention would get them to stop killing innocent civilians if Israel was more scrupulous about international law? Israel is well past the complaining stage.
 
armageddonman said:
I really should apply for the million dollars because as predicted, the fact that a wall in general has never been reason for complaint but it being built on occupied territory is, is being totally ignored again.

Tell me: why does Israel not build a wall on it's own territory?
Hutch said:
AUP, Ion and armageddon have asked again and again and again why the wall has not been built on and within Internationally recognized borders of Israel, rather that in a convoluted pattern over territory that has not been formally annexed or considered part of Israel, even by that Government?
Because A) Palestinians ARE NOT launching attacks from Israeli territory and B) Israel and especially the West Bank is not a 400 kilometer long billiard table, topography and strategic zones do not follow the green line in a nice neat row and C) Settlements are targets of attack too . Alas I too do not agree about sections of the walls path, but the wall is a last final and frankly desperate response to a deadly serious threat, the deadly serious threat is not a response to a concrete wall.

No threat = no reason for a wall.
 
a_unique_person said:
The schoolbus is a tragedy, there is no doubt of that. If you want to compare the number of children dead, however, as a means of comparing who awful the situation is over there, more Palestinian children have died.
Because why? Because Arafat and the Palestinian Authority allow islamofascist groups to DRESS LIKE, OPERATE, CONCEAL and LAUNCH ATTACKS from within Palestinian civilian areas. That makes Palestinian civilians HUMAN SHEILDS for the islamofascists as well as the unintentional victims of combat. Or is Israel not suppose to respond to attacks because islamofascists HIDE amongst civilians? If the Palestinian Authority will not stop the islamofascists who's reponsibility does it become? It becomes Israel's responsibility.
 
IMHO,

all the sides are up to their knees in blood. no one is innocent. everyone is a murderer as well as a victim.


Virgil
 
Ion said:
Rafallini

once again, get this in your thick head:

Israel's wall is to be inside Israel.

Not stealing foreign land, outside Israel.

Sorry if you think I'm thick-headed Ion---but I'm still not sure what your point is. Your sentence structure leaves a lot to be desired.

If you're trying to say that the wall shouldn't be where it is now--which is what you & several others keep yammering about......I'm aware of that fact. It's the whole point of my post.

Yes--where it's located is "illegal"----yes, it's causing hardships
and inconveniences for people but I think it's laughable the way the UN and some of the posters here are reacting to it in light of some of the other things that are going on.

The UN is all up in arms over this----and says relatively little about what's going on in the Sudan or about what Israel has had to deal with that resulted in the wall being built. Nobody has been been killed---nobody has been crippled --and yet the UN (and some of the posters here) is carrying on like this is THE most important issue of the day.

I wish they responded as vehemently to terrorist atrocities or the little ethnic cleansing program in the Sudan. How about the UN's lame response to Irans recent proclamation of "F-you---we're going ahead with our nuke program".


AUPs comment about the wall being " a crime against humanity of the highest order" is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make.
Auschwitz was a crime against humanity of the highest order. On a small scale---blowing up a bus full of schoolchildren is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

The genocide in the Sudan is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

Allow the UN to put more emphasis on Israel's wall than on Irans attempts to get nukes and you'll see what crimes against humanity of the highest order really are.

I think people who can't see the difference between murdering children & the problems caused by the Israeli wall need a serious reality check.


I think Skeptics original point was it doesn't matter what Israel does. The UN will condemn it as they always have in the past.
If they did what the UN told them they should do---they would no longer exist as a country.


Also Ion---I think you should try to just stay with "Ralph".
Calling me "Ralfone" or "Ralphini" makes you come across as a simpleton..........................
 
Ziggurat said:
You totally ducked my point: why SHOULD Israel care?...
...
Israel should care to not steal foreign land.

Israel can build the wall inside Israel.
 
This thread was somewhat hijacked, so, to get it back on topic, perhaps I should say more. Hanna Arendt said it best when speaking of 19th century antisemitic parties on the left: "They introduced the distinction between individual jews, 'our brethen', and jewry as a group, a distinction that from then on was to become the trademark of leftist antisemitism (my emphasis).

Arendt is right. This is still the case with the European left (and many of the "socialists" posting on this forum, as well). They believe that since they feel no personal hatered towards jews they know, they are not antisemitic. Nonsense, said Arendt. They are antisemitic since they deny to the jews what they deny to nobody else: any and every sort of national identity. Let's just compare what the "enlightened European left" says about the jews as opposed to other nations, shall we?

On the one hand, jews, alone of all nations, are not only practically unwise, but morally wrong for seeking a homeland. jews, alone of all nation, must understand that the "real reason" for attacks on them is this evil desire for a homeland, and that if only they gave that up everything would be OK. jews alone, of all people, may not under any circumstances try to change the situation in their benefit; they must totally accomodate their enemies and hope for the best. jews alone, of all people, must instantly be 100% in compliance of whatever the newest fashionable ethical and/or political philosophy is, or else be labeled the "enemies of progress". jews alone, of all people, must simply not live anywhere their enemies don't want them to. And so on and so forth.

On the other hand, how different is this from the way these wonderful, progressive socialists treat any other nation! These very same people, when dealing with any other nation, consider a desire for a homeland, if perhaps practically unwise, at least a natural, and even praiseworthy, thing. When dealing with any other nation, the fact that that nation is subject to murderous attacks is no evidence that their nationalism is wrong, but merely that others are agressive towards them and if anything another reason to support them. When dealing with any other nation, their culture, religion, and practices--no matter how different from the western ideal--deserve, if not acceptance, than at least respect.

Simply put, the jewish nation is the only nation that has no rights at all and must, at the drop of a hat, obey completely the dicta of these "socialists" about what exactly is morally acceptable and what isn't at the moment, or else be hated and declared to be on the "wrong" side. That the socialist's ideal du jour would--if followed--lead to disasterous consequences, well, that's just those jews making excuses again to hide their moral perfidity, and in any cases they should have thought of that before they had this silly idea that they're a nation. There isn't an ounce of understanding, consideration, or respect for the jewish people in the lot of them put together--all we hear are complaints and whines that those jews are being racist or colonialist or violent or deniers of civil rights (or whatever is the evil du jour is), and that, by golly, they're not going to get any sympathy from me until they do as I say regardless of consequences, goddammit!

Does the fact that people like that claim not to hate jews personally--perhaps honestly--mean a damn thing about them not being antisemitic? Of course not. To compare, say that somoene claims not to be a racist because he doesn't feel any particular disgust or hatered towards black people. It's only those bad negroes, the ones who claim to have some sort of right as a group, that are stirring up trouble, and are the "root cause" of all those lynching and cross-burning violence (which is directed against them by others, but that doesn't mean they're not it's "root cause".) Surely, they should forget all about these "civil rights" or "black vote" thingies, or at the very least stop looking at white women wrong and stop riding at the front of the bus, two things white people made quite clear they don't want them to do--if they keep insisting they have the right to live where they want, not just where their enemies allow them, well, they can just expected to "cause more violence" and it's all going to be their fault.

In the same way someone like that is obviously a rabid racist, someone like AUP--who claims not to hate jews, but clearly considers the existence of a jewish national identity a huge inconvenience that is the "root cause" of all and every trouble in the middle east (if not the world), and that therefore the jews who keep insisiting they're part of a nation with rights deserve everything they get from their enemies--is obviously a rabid antisemite.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Because why? Because Arafat and the Palestinian Authority allow islamofascist groups to DRESS LIKE, OPERATE, CONCEAL and LAUNCH ATTACKS from within Palestinian civilian areas. That makes Palestinian civilians HUMAN SHEILDS for the islamofascists as well as the unintentional victims of combat. Or is Israel not suppose to respond to attacks because islamofascists HIDE amongst civilians? If the Palestinian Authority will not stop the islamofascists who's reponsibility does it become? It becomes Israel's responsibility.

But the wall does not only address that issue, it also takes a hell of a lot Palestinian land and creates an the worlds biggest prison.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. Where would you base your resistance?
 
Skeptic said:
This thread was somewhat hijacked, so, to get it back on topic, perhaps I should say more.


Or, I think I will just avoid that bit about the wall, as I have no answer to it.


Hanna Arendt said it best when speaking of 19th century antisemitic parties on the left: "They introduced the distinction between individual jews, 'our brethen', and jewry as a group, a distinction that from then on was to become the trademark of leftist antisemitism (my emphasis).

Arendt is right. This is still the case with the European left (and many of the "socialists" posting on this forum, as well). They believe that since they feel no personal hatered towards jews they know, they are not antisemitic. Nonsense, said Arendt. They are antisemitic since they deny to the jews what they deny to nobody else: any and every sort of national identity. Let's just compare what the "enlightened European left" says about the jews as opposed to other nations, shall we?


Marching out the strawmen again? I would have thought your closet would be empty of them again.

You are trying to have it both ways. To condemn all Jews for the mistakes of Israel is to subscribe to a loony 'blood libel' conspiracy theory. But to condemn the Zionist extremists and not Jews in general for Israel's mistakes is to deny Jews the identity of a nation. Make your mind up, if you will let me attack all Jews for being part of vast international conspiracy, you will be making my day. I will get on the phone to David Irving right away and let him know the good news.

BTW, the complaint is another one of these, 'the jews always get it worst' ones that is trotted out by the loony elements. IIRC, there are many groups with a problem with having a national identity. I am sure you already know this, but I will think of a few off the top of my head.

Australian aboriginals
Gypsies
Palestinians
Kurds
Macedonians



On the one hand, jews, alone of all nations, are not only practically unwise, but morally wrong for seeking a homeland. jews, alone of all nation, must understand that the "real reason" for attacks on them is this evil desire for a homeland, and that if only they gave that up everything would be OK. jews alone, of all people, may not under any circumstances try to change the situation in their benefit; they must totally accomodate their enemies and hope for the best. jews alone, of all people, must instantly be 100% in compliance of whatever the newest fashionable ethical and/or political philosophy is, or else be labeled the "enemies of progress". jews alone, of all people, must simply not live anywhere their enemies don't want them to. And so on and so forth.


so much bs....



In the same way someone like that is obviously a rabid racist, someone like AUP--who claims not to hate jews, but clearly considers the existence of a jewish national identity a huge inconvenience that is the "root cause" of all and every trouble in the middle east (if not the world), and that therefore the jews who keep insisiting they're part of a nation with rights deserve everything they get from their enemies--is obviously a rabid antisemite.

wrong, wrong, wrong.

I do not think Israel is the root cause of all that is wrong with the ME, and have stated so already. Without Israel, the area would still have plenty of problems. Israel is just compounding an already complex situation, but in a major way. For the Palestinians, it is the major problem, however. The influence of Israel on the world is still important. Why do I see something to do with the ME everyday in my newspaper. I don't have to seek it out, it seeks me out.

And as you have ducked out on the wall already, you obviously already know what the issue is. The desire to have a nation is being driven by a powerful group of fundies who, even though they know it is just going to cause more strife, insist on taking over the West Bank and imprisoning millions of people. Need I remind you again, even Ben Gurion said that to hold onto the West Bank was a mistaken.
 
Jon_in_london said:
A.k.a. democracy.

Cute.

There was a time when the majority in our democracy supported slavery. Did that make it right?

Unless you answered "yes", you have demonstrated why argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
 
Mycroft said:
Cute.

There was a time when the majority in our democracy supported slavery. Did that make it right?

Unless you answered "yes", you have demonstrated why argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.

Of course, one needs to recall that the UN has an automatic majority for the Arab world and against the US and israel, in the same sense the local lunatic asylum has an automatic majority for the insane over the psychiatrists.
 
Ion said:
Israel should care to not steal foreign land.

Israel can build the wall inside Israel.

Another duck: WHY should they care? Not what should they care about, but WHY should they care? Should they care because Palestinians will retaliate? The Palestinian terrorists want to destroy Israel regardless of what it does. Should they care because their arab neighbors will get angry? Too late for that. Should they care because international opinion will turn against them? It's been against them from the start.

I know you're an antisemitic bigot, Ion (yes, I remember quite well that "joke" you posted recently), but apparently you're an idiot as well: the fence is going up, and nothing the international court says about it is going to stop that from happening.
 
a_unique_person said:
a more readable version.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Note how it does not just separate Israel from the West Bank, it is used to create Palestinian ghettoes. Why the infernal thing has to surround the Palestinian towns is totally beyond me, except that it is nothing more than a means of imprisoning a people. This is a crime against humanity of the highest order.

More readable, but wrong.

MidEastWeb.org works hard to present a neutral point of view or to present all points of view where the first is impossible. While I don't personally agree with everything I read there, I do respect them for making an honest effort to present the facts without regard to politics.

Read what they have to say about the Gush-Shalom map:

A supposed map of the projected fence was originally published by Gush Shalom (right). That map did not differentiate between the planned areas of the fence and projections by Palestinian sources. See http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/ for the Gush Shalom article. The map is based on Palestinian sources. It was used by Gush Shalom and is being used by Electronic Intifada to support the claim that Israel intends to enclose the Palestinians in ghettos or Bantustans in the West Bank, surrounded by a wall.

http://www.mideastweb.org/thefence.htm
 
Originally posted by Skeptic
Arendt is right. This is still the case with the European left (and many of the "socialists" posting on this forum, as well). They believe that since they feel no personal hatered towards Jews they know, they are not antisemitic. Nonsense, said Arendt....

This is a great point. Most bigotry is not characterized by hatred, it's much more subtle than that. The bigot doesn't hate the target of his bigotry, he just:

1)Doesn't trust them.

2)Feels uncomfortable around them.

3)Doesn't want his son or daughter to hang around with them, much less date them.

4)Is annoyed when they “act” their ethnicity. Sure, there is nothing wrong with being (blank), nobody can help how they were born, but why can't they act like everyone else? Don't they know society should be homogeneous?

5)Makes assumptions about them based on stereotypes.

6)Expects less of them than from others.

7)Expects more of them than from others.

And on and on. The point is none of these things involve hate. None of them preclude friendship or intimacy. None of them directly lead to violence, yet they are all bigotry just the same.
 
Ziggurat said:
You totally ducked my point: why SHOULD Israel care?

I did not duck your point, let me quote myself:

If Israel cared about international law, it would comply to international law. If Israel does not want to comply to international law, it cannot complain about other countries breaking international law.

See? If Israel does not care about international law, why do Israeli officials bemoan the verdict?

If Israel does not care about international law, it has no right to complain about anything at the international community.



When they complained about Palestinian terrorists using UN ambulances to hide in (an unambiguous violation of the Geneva convention), the UN, rather than trying to fix the problem, declared that it was offended that Israel would dare level such an accusation.

Sources?

Given this reality, that international law is never applied evenly with regard to Israel,

Examples? Sources? Can you give evidence for these accusations?

Israel is well past the complaining stage. [/B]

Wrong, Israel keeps bitching and whining to divert from the fact that it breaks international law.


And, as predicted, you again totally ignored the fact that the Israel's right to defend itself by building a wall has nerver been disputed but the course of the wall on occupied territory has.
 

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