Why do lesbians look like men?

[bjb]

I love it when straight people think they have gaydar.

You don't, sweeties. We've infiltrated your population like Cylons on Caprica. Sure, you see the obvious big robots. But while you're gawking at them, the rest of us are getting on with our sinister plots. Mwah hah hah!

I also don't believe in gaydar that works 100% of the time. I don't think it works by looking, but gaydar can be triggered by watching. For example, my wife and I swing dance, and a man's leading style is one way to tell if someone is straight or not. Straight men have trouble not dancing like robots while gay men tend to have way too much style. In swing dancing, the male lead is supposed to be subdued while the woman's part is more attention-getting. A gay man will lead a woman in simple steps while he's using very advanced lead variations. In other words, he swing dances so he can be the star, not her. Quite often, we go to Disneyland on Saturday nights for the swing dancing and there's a lot of that going on.

 

[Dave1001]

And? I'm sure a fair amount of normal straight men would find her very attractive until reaching the penis, at which point I would expect a good number of them to run away screaming. Are you suggesting that lesbians who date other butch lesbians are under the impression that their dates are actually men with penises?

No, no nothing like that. But I'd be surprised if lesbians who are attracted to macho looking women aren't occasionally attracted to macho looking guys, too. At least "until reaching the penis".

 

[Dave1001]

In NYC you can't tell who is gay, male or female. You often can't even tell who is male or female.

 

[bjb]

As a wierd question, what do people think would happen if a lesbian found out that the butch she was with was really a man?(admittedly this is highly unlikely)

Years ago, I saw an episode of Jerry Springer where some women found out the 'man' they were dating was a lesbian in disguise. It was pretty shocking since all of the women admitted that they'd never seen this 'guy' naked before.

More recently, I saw part of another Jerry Springer show were women find out the man they were dating was really a woman. I don't watch the show too often so I don't know if there have been any men who found out their girlfriend was really a guy. But it's somewhat threatening to my fragile male ego to realize I can be replaced by a well-designed strap-on.

 

[bjb]

I forgot to mention the unofficial Gay Day event at Disneyland (the event is unofficial, the participants are officially gay). It's the first weekend of October and although we forget about it every year, we wind up at Disneyland that weekend. It's also the first weekend to see the Halloween decorations so maybe that's why we are there. Anyway, there are people wearing red shirts everywhere and that's pretty much the only way to tell that they're gay. Overall, the gay men look like normal guys and the lesbians look like normal girls. There are a few exceptions, but no more than on any other day at Disneyland. Anyhow, take a look at the Gay Days picture galleries and see for yourself what lesbians actually look like, at least the ones in Southern California.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I forgot to mention the unofficial Gay Day event at Disneyland (the event is unofficial, the participants are officially gay).

What agency is in charge of making people officially gay?

 

[bjb]

If you put on the shirt then you're officially gay.

 

[CaptainManacles]

... my question is how he picked the "sample size of 90". I suspect he knows more than 900 women, which in turn suggests that he knows more than 90 lesbians by simple probability. I suspect that the lesbians he notices are the bull dyke type, so it becomes a self-selecting and unrepresentative sample.

Involvement in various "gay community" activities at college, some friends that were gay, and then of course meeting friends of those friends. Yes, selection bias rears it's ugly head. There is a possibility that the only people who show up to gay support organizations or who help with pride week are raging bull dykes, but I tend to think there's more to it then that, especially sense I saw the same distribution through various sources, and I saw a correlation, that is, sort of pretty girls were almost always bi, girls who looked like adolescent boys were almost always totally lesbian, and hot girls lasted a month and then decided they were straight.

Yes, there are exceptions, but let's not let confirmation bias spin us the other way. Just because there's a 1 out of a 100 exception does not discount there being some kind of trend. I think there's something to be said of a bias towards seeing equality where it doesn't exist. Seems to me with what we know about homosexuality and biology, one would assume there is a distinct possibility of some trends showing physical differences, but everyone jumps at the idea that samples showing inequality are just biased, even if they have no good reason to believe that, other then that it's simply possible, while ignoring the fact that their own experiences could be biased.

If homosexuality is biologically driven, we're talking about some very radical changes to brain chemistry and structure. It tells us to either like breasts or wide shoulders, it tells us to like curves or triangular bodies, it attracts us to the particular musk given off by men or women, drives us to or away from vagina. Any one of those things by itself is complex, differentiating between a breast and a circle drawn in the dirt, not being attracted to utters, placing value judgments on "nice" breasts, liking larger breasts, disliking saggy breasts. We can induce homosexuality in animals by giving the proper blast of hormones at just the right moment; we can make female spider monkeys run around trying to mount other female spider monkeys, but these same hormones at slightly different times will make radical changes in other areas of the brain and to the body. I think it's weird to assume that a natural process creates homosexuality, but that it's impossible for the same natural process to make any changes to physiology.

Even if you dispute that homosexuality is biologically driven, that's even more to my point. One would expect social pressures toward heterosexuality to be much stronger for "hot" women.

I would also be more apt to believe it is just my imagination if I got some false positives now and again, all I get is false negatives. That is, you can point to some hot lesbians, but can you point to any girls who look like adolescent boys who are totally straight? I use to point to Rossie O'Donald and Ellen as examples of false positives, Rossie looked like a dyke but had a huge crush on Tom Cruise, Ellen was kinda boyish but made jokes about sneeking into hot guys appartments and laying in wait for them, but yeah, you're right, obviously physical appearence predicts nothing.

 

[Polaris]

Polaris,

Serious question did you have a good relationship with your mom growing up?

Yes, still do.

 

[Polaris]

I am sure you stand by everything you said, and I think it tells quite a lot about you.

No, I have not dated any women.

I am a woman, I have dated a few men before getting married, and if you were the last man on earth I would beat myself to death with a stick before even thinking about dating you.

ETA: I am aware that what I wrote above is derailing the thread. I wrote the first post because the sweeping statement Polaris made about lesbians was in line with generalisations he made about women in general in a previous thread.

I think that other people have already presented a good answer to Polaris's OP.

Good, we'd be doing each other a favor. Why wait? You flatter yourself to imagine I'd want to date you anyway. You've obviously got a special problem with me, and I suggest you deal with it.

I make generalized statements like the ones you quoted because they are generally true. Most of those statements are my own personal opinion and preferences, sue me.

 

[Polaris]

WOW! That brings a whole new light to Polaris. About the only thing he didn't say was that the woman he's looking for should be a midget (so she won't have to kneel) with a flat head (so he can set his beer down).

She wouldn't have to be a midget, I've never met a woman taller than me. I don't think I'd find someone with a head flat enough to hold a martini glass with any degree of stability. What is so horrible about a woman doing things that please her husband/boyfriend anyway?

To be fair though, I'm one of those "pussi-fied" men he's talking about. I love poetry. I'm an artist. I have friends in the symphony and the theater. I "understand" ballet and once devoted tons of time to dance lessons . . . .

That doesn't match my definition of "pussi-fied". I personally was big into theater in high school, never liked sports, frequently dabble in art and writing, etc. I've never owned or worn a jersey. It has nothing to do with activities such as these. When I say "pussy" I mean a guy who is exceedingly nice to women in an attempt to date them and/or who abdicates all decision-making power to his partner. It also extends to men who spend more time primping and preening in a bathroom than the average high-maintenance woman.

Speaking of dance lessons, I once studied flamenco and took a lot of ribbing (no, not THAT kind) from guy friends and family. They got angry when I turned it around on them and asked, "which is more gay; spending Saturdays and Sundays getting drunk with a bunch of men while you slap each other on the ass everytime your team does something good, or dancing close with a bunch of beautiful women who are sweaty and breathing hard?

I've always thought the gayest thing in the world was high-school/collegiate wrestling. Curiously, wrestlers tended to be the most homophobic men I've ever met. The male cheerleaders were the really astute ones. And, for the record, no amount of alcohol could ever make me touch another man's ass.

 

[Polaris]

If the shoe fits, wear it. Time tag is irrelevant.

DR

I asked the question and I'm reading the responses. I'm genuinely curious about the topic - which is why I asked it.

You assume too much.

 

[kittynh]

I'm not even going to bisexual route here.

Angelina Jolie is bisexual, or has dated men and women.

She is kinda butch, but hey...

 

[Polaris]

I'm not even going to bisexual route here.

Angelina Jolie is bisexual, or has dated men and women.

She is kinda butch, but hey...

Has her bisexuality been proven? (I mean, other than the whole GIA thing).

I haven't met a bisexual woman who's looked like a man. They still have to attract straight men, so looking like a man isn't going to work I wouldn't think.

Angelina Jolie butch?!?!?! If she's butch, is any actress feminine?

 

[Polaris]

My post was quickly tossed off and only partially influenced by long observation of humans.

I have done a fair bit of reading on human sexuality and forensic sexology, mostly in line with my profession. (law enforcement)
At one time or another, I read most of the late John Money's books on paraphilia, forensic sexology, and others.

Of course we know that homosexuality is not classified as a paraphilia. However, the causative factors are largely unknown. Researchers suspect a genetic component, developmental components, and possibly even post-birth experiences of an unknown nature.
The discussion was about physical types. It's certainly observable that within the broad range of homosexuality, there exist certain physical characteristics which are almost stereotypical.
The fact that some of these characteristics manifest early in life seems to indicate that they are not socially aquired. At least one researcher has written a book on this phenomenon:
http://www.amazon.com/Sissy-Boy-Syn...ef=sr_1_1/102-9928136-6293719?ie=UTF8&s=books

All this is not particularly useful, since only a percentage of homosexual individuals are involved. However, it does tend to lend credence to the idea of a developmental component.

Thank you, this is the kind of post I was hoping to get from the OP, not the cornucopia of cryptic (and not so cryptic) accusations of homophobia, mysogeny and intolerance that it spawned.

 

[marksman]

FYI: The "10% gay" percentage was first out out in the Kinsey report on male sexuality in 1947. The Kinsey report on female sexuality in 1955 put the rate of lesbianism at around 7-8%. Although groundbreaking, even Kinsey admitted that his numbers were very broad estimates.

More recent studies put an estimate at closer to 3-5%.

 

[steverino]

cancel this

 

[Ace_of_Sevens]

I've know plenty of chapstick bisexuals. They had butch haircuts, semi-masculin dress, and many tatoos, but generally stayed in shape and wore a little make-up. Plenty of men are attracted to this. See the Suicidegirls forums for evidence.

 

[steverino]

This couple, friends of mine, got "married." Do they look butch?

 

[Tanja]

Good, we'd be doing each other a favor. Why wait? You flatter yourself to imagine I'd want to date you anyway.

You break my heart, Polaris.
I know you would not want to date me. I have a career and speak my mind. Occasionally I (shock, horror) talk to my husband about how my day at work has been, and we both do housework.

You've obviously got a special problem with me, and I suggest you deal with it.

How should I deal with it? Enroll in a 50's good housewife course?

I make generalized statements like the ones you quoted because they are generally true. Most of those statements are my own personal opinion and preferences, sue me.

I am totally aware they are your personal opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to your personal opinion as long as you don't influence other people's lives accordingly - for example, if you were line managing a female employee and discriminated against her due to your idea of women's place in society.

As with everything, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. You can say "all women I dated were golddiggers and liked bad guys" but you cannot claim that of all women, as a generalisation, and expect not to be challenged.