Why do lesbians look like men?

[Antiquehunter]

Seems to me there is a wide range of physical types in both male and female homosexuality. Amongst male gays, there are clearly very effeminate men who often manifest early in life. (so-called "sissy boys") These individuals often have a variety of manifestations including high voices, mannerisms, walks, and so forth.

Any evidence for your assertion that all 'sissy boys' grow up to be mincing Quentin Crisp caricatures?

On the other end, there is the so-called "bear", the very masculine homosexual. Stereotypically interested in sports and other typically male stuff...

Nope - bears tend to be gay men of a certain physical size, sometimes on the chunky side, generally with facial/body hair. There are 'bear' clubs that involve sports, camping, working out etc... but there are also 'bear' social circles that prefer to sit around drinking beer, and there are probably bear knitting circles if you look hard enough.

From my experience just as many gay men of ALL descriptions enjoy 'typical male stuff' to a lesser or greater extent as hetereosexual men enjoy or don't enjoy playing / watching football, fart jokes and Nascar races. Nelly fags sometimes can be found at monster truck rallies as well.

With females, the "bull dyke" type has a rather masculine appearance, from chunky bodies with ill-defined secondary sexual characteristics, deep voices, and so forth in contrast to lesbians of typically female appearance and behaviors.

Sure - you can try and classify lesbians into a bunch of different categories - Butch, Femme, Bull, Lipstick, Shoe... is there any relevance or importance to this? Perhaps if you're running a lesbian bar you may wish to hire lesbian wait staff of a certain appearance to keep with the ambience of your establishment. But for day to day life does it really matter how one classifies one's appearance?

It has always seemed to me that in addition to other factors that may influence sexual or gender identity, there must be part of the developmental process that allows for some percentage of people to be influenced "the wrong way" towards characteristics that are outside the normally-accepted gender characters.

Interesting assertion - do you have any evidence for this apart from anecdotal observation? And just whose 'wrong way' and 'normally-accepted' judgements are you using in your classification?

 

[bjb]

You're only noticing the lesbians who look like men. You might see a femme but she'll look just like a straight woman and your gaydar won't be triggered.

 

[Janus]

I'm actually a Lesbian trapped in the body of a man.....

That sucks. Not man enough for hetro women. Lesbians wont touch you with a 40 foot pole. If that’s not enough, guys with a certain bent think you’re hot.

 

[Tanja]

Urgh. I don't often bear a grudge against other posters, but may I just remind the audience that Polaris seems to be living on another planet when women are concerned. Polaris, you may not be a troll, but your posts in the thread titled "I so totally do not understand girls" were the most misogynistic crap I have ever read in my life. So, it does not surprise me that he was making sweeping generalisations based on a sample of only a few women.

Polaris's quotes from that thread on page five:

I definitely don't want a relationship. Not now anyway. I have goals to meet and I'm not exactly wealthy. I can't have a woman competing for my time.
I have friends for stimulating conversation. I can guarantee you one thing though, if I ever do decide to go monogamous (that's not marriage, btw, something I will never get suckered into), she will NOT be American. I want a woman from a culture who will treat a man like he wants to be treated, not as a human ATM machine.

Oh you're right, I am anything but a nice guy. And my definition of a nice guy includes what you describe as a spineless, slavering dog (mind you, you just described a huge number of American men and probably 75% of high school boys). But it also includes any man who resorts to bribery in the form of dinners, flowers, and insistence on "chivalry". It includes men who let their women give them ultimatums; who let their women go to work while they stay home; men who let their women make the majority of the decisions, etc. I have another name for "nice guys": pussies. I used to be one. I learned.

For me, if I was to get into a relationship (never marriage, btw, that should be seen in plasma-technicolor) I would bring stability and company, a roof over her head, and never having to work again. I would get in return someone who I enjoy being with, who takes care of my house for me and who provides me with sex. Simple circa-1940 (minus the threat of beating).

I don't want to be with a woman who has a career. If I want to come home to an empty, dark house, I'll stay single. I'd rather not have my g/f come home after me, full of the same stresses and gripes of her workplace as I do., or going on business trips/to cocktail parties with other men. I want a traditional situation, minus the legal document (like I said before, way, WAY too risky for a man in the US), where I work and she stays home. She wouldn't be locked in or anything like that - given the way this thread is going I feel I have to point that out - she could do whatever she wanted in the meantime as long as things were orderly around the house: hobbies, charities, meeting her girlfriends, working part-time - I don't expect her to clean, cook, and wait for me by the door like a dog. But I see no good coming from me being involved with a career woman.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I love it when straight people think they have gaydar.

You don't, sweeties. We've infiltrated your population like Cylons on Caprica. Sure, you see the obvious big robots. But while you're gawking at them, the rest of us are getting on with our sinister plots. Mwah hah hah!

 

[CaptainManacles]

I call BS on objections stemming from the sample size. I can say with a sample size of about 90, that 95% of the lesbians I met looked like boys. The closest thing I ever met to lipstick lesbians were girls who looked like cute boys. The only ones I met that were "hot" decided that they weren't gay after all pretty quick. Even the ones that looked like cute boys turned out to be bi.

I'll tell you my hypothesis. First, even with all the progress, I'm willing to bet social pressure plays a very large part on someone's acceptence of their own sexuality, and many people are willing to just not think about it. It's really really really hard to be gay. Really hard. No, really. Really hard. Even if you exclude a lot of the truely terrifying stuff, there's a lot of little crap that makes it that much harder, like your dating pool being 50 times smaller. It's tragic, but being easily able to attract guys may have a huge impact on when and if a lesbian comes out to themselves. This effect would be more pronounced in conservative areas, which may be why some see it and some don't. I know I went to a very conservative university.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

i know quite many bisexual or lesbian girls, and only one of them comes close to being masculine. And she is still pretty far off.

 

[Dave1001]

I call BS on objections stemming from the sample size. I can say with a sample size of about 90, that 95% of the lesbians I met looked like boys. The closest thing I ever met to lipstick lesbians were girls who looked like cute boys. The only ones I met that were "hot" decided that they weren't gay after all pretty quick. Even the ones that looked like cute boys turned out to be bi.

I'll tell you my hypothesis. First, even with all the progress, I'm willing to bet social pressure plays a very large part on someone's acceptence of their own sexuality, and many people are willing to just not think about it. It's really really really hard to be gay. Really hard. No, really. Really hard. Even if you exclude a lot of the truely terrifying stuff, there's a lot of little crap that makes it that much harder, like your dating pool being 50 times smaller. It's tragic, but being easily able to attract guys may have a huge impact on when and if a lesbian comes out to themselves. This effect would be more pronounced in conservative areas, which may be why some see it and some don't. I know I went to a very conservative university.

I think there's an element of truth to this except that rather than going straight, really hot lesbians (and gay men) probably just congregrate where there are lots more of them, like NY, LA, Miami, and SF.

NYC is teeming with extremely hot lesbians and any other sexual orientation you can think of.

Although I do agree that very good looking women who are lesbian-oriented are more likely to decide that they're bi. I think it's because they get hit on by so many men that they're likely to encounter the 1 in a thousand that they're actually attracted to. Same thing in reverse for very good looking men who are straight-oriented.

 

[Dancing David]

Actually, this is an interesting question about some lesbians. I don't see why lesbians attracted to butch women don't get attracted to men. Or why gay men who are attracted to femme men don't get attracted to women. But perhaps they do ...

This same criticism could apply to heteros though.

Might be why I am not attracted to drag queens, although I suppose I could be attracted to transgender people.

I don't find men atractive, i do find women attractive, could be chemistry and the sound of the voice, I ceratinly prefer the higher body fat ratio and lack of body hair. It is PFM.

 

[Dancing David]

If I have, they aren't very open about their sexuality.

That is another issue, it could be that you are just counting the ones that you think look like lesbians. I have met some gay men who wouldn't set off 'gaydar', they are quite butch and act just like hetero men, except in the bedroom.

So if you base your sample merely upon visible traits, it might skew the data. there is tremendous presurre on many groups to cover thier identity.

 

[Dave1001]

Might be why I am not attracted to drag queens, although I suppose I could be attracted to transgender people.

I don't find men atractive, i do find women attractive, could be chemistry and the sound of the voice, I ceratinly prefer the higher body fat ratio and lack of body hair. It is PFM.

If you are talking about drag queens with obvious masculine characteristics, then that falls within my point.

There are transvestites though (particularly in Brazil) that I think most hetero men would find extremely attractive, at least with their naughty bits unexposed. I do find it hard to believe that lesbians attracted to femme women wouldn't be attracted to them too.

 

[Dancing David]

I think there's an element of truth to this except that rather than going straight, really hot lesbians (and gay men) probably just congregrate where there are lots more of them, like NY, LA, Miami, and SF.

NYC is teeming with extremely hot lesbians and any other sexual orientation you can think of.

Although I do agree that very good looking women who are lesbian-oriented are more likely to decide that they're bi. I think it's because they get hit on by so many men that they're likely to encounter the 1 in a thousand that they're actually attracted to. Same thing in reverse for very good looking men who are straight-oriented.

A lot of gays and lesbians simply cover thier identity, if you live in a small Illinois town it is not uncommon to to to the next big city past your closest one. So instead of going to Champaign-Urbana, from Effingham, you go to Springfield or Chicago, although there are a lot clubs in Indy as well.

And lesbians can often cover better than gay men, something social there.

And many people get involved in hetero relationships before they realise they are homo or feel comfortable with it. Sexuality is a spectrum, very few people score zero on either scale.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sure - you can try and classify lesbians into a bunch of different categories - Butch, Femme, Bull, Lipstick, Shoe... is there any relevance or importance to this? Perhaps if you're running a lesbian bar you may wish to hire lesbian wait staff of a certain appearance to keep with the ambience of your establishment. But for day to day life does it really matter how one classifies one's appearance?

Sure there is, they are asthetics to be persued. It is like asking anyone what someone looks like and what classifications they dress in. It has limited value to those not involved, but it is of some importance.

 

[Polaris]

Urgh. I don't often bear a grudge against other posters, but may I just remind the audience that Polaris seems to be living on another planet when women are concerned. Polaris, you may not be a troll, but your posts in the thread titled "I so totally do not understand girls" were the most misogynistic crap I have ever read in my life. So, it does not surprise me that he was making sweeping generalisations based on a sample of only a few women.

Polaris's quotes from that thread on page five:

And I stick by everything I said in those posts. How many women have you dated?

 

[Tanja]

And I stick by everything I said in those posts. How many women have you dated?

I am sure you stand by everything you said, and I think it tells quite a lot about you.

No, I have not dated any women.

I am a woman, I have dated a few men before getting married, and if you were the last man on earth I would beat myself to death with a stick before even thinking about dating you.

ETA: I am aware that what I wrote above is derailing the thread. I wrote the first post because the sweeping statement Polaris made about lesbians was in line with generalisations he made about women in general in a previous thread.

I think that other people have already presented a good answer to Polaris's OP.

 

[rebecca]

I don't see why lesbians attracted to butch women don't get attracted to men.

MEN HAVE PENISES AND WOMEN HAVE VAGINAS. For starters.

 

[Demigorgon]

Clearly the lesbians I have know were defective.

I lol'd.

 

[Mephisto]

Maybe you should also ask, "Why do transvestites look (or try to) like women?

I agree with everyone else, you should try to widen your pool of lesbian acquaintances. You should never rely on stereotypes to "think" you've got a group down pat. I've known lesbians who are jaw-dropping gorgeous (and feminine). Lesbians don't all look like Rosie O'Donnell.

 

[Sally]

Polaris,

Serious question did you have a good relationship with your mom growing up?

 

[drkitten]

Any evidence for your assertion that all 'sissy boys' grow up to be mincing Quentin Crisp caricatures?

I don't think she suggested that "all 'sissy boys' grow up to be mincing Quentin Crisp caricatures"; I think she suggested that mincing Quentin Crisp caricatures exist within the gay community. And that's obviously true. Here's the quote in case you've forgotten:

Amongst male gays, there are clearly very effeminate men who often manifest early in life. (so-called "sissy boys") These individuals often have a variety of manifestations including high voices, mannerisms, walks, and so forth.

Now, of course, if you go looking for "gays" (for whatever reason), the caricatures are very easy to spot. My gaydar isn't very good, but even I can spot the mincing flaming nancy. And since that's about all I can spot, I've got good reason to believe that all gays are like that. This is the well known fallacy of "argument by being too dumb to recognize the counterexamples."


Going back to the good Captain's writings:

I can say with a sample size of about 90, that 95% of the lesbians I met looked like boys. The closest thing I ever met to lipstick lesbians were girls who looked like cute boys. The only ones I met that were "hot" decided that they weren't gay after all pretty quick. Even the ones that looked like cute boys turned out to be bi.

... my question is how he picked the "sample size of 90". I suspect he knows more than 900 women, which in turn suggests that he knows more than 90 lesbians by simple probability. I suspect that the lesbians he notices are the bull dyke type, so it becomes a self-selecting and unrepresentative sample.