Why do conservatives lie so much?

[Ladewig]

*boggle* So it's ok if they lie, as long as they believe their lies due to their idiotic worldview? That's an....odd stance to take if I've ever seen one.

*boggle* right back at you.

A lie requires someone to understand the truth and then attempt to mislead someone else by saying something other than the truth. People who perceive the world in a different manner are not lying when they describe their world view. You can criticize them for being uninformed, biased, narrow-minded, willfully ignorant, or blind-to-evidence, but you cannot describe them as liars

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...but you can describe them as liars

Freudian slip? I see you've edited your post.

I think the originators of the lies know full well they are deceitful but the followers of said lies do not.

I need to add the latest lie to my list: Planned Parenthood sells fetal body parts.

 

[plague311]

Do you not understand the sampling problem that I pointed out? Do you not understand how that completely invalidates Travis's claim? Because I can explain it to you if you don't.

Explain it either way! Hell, we both might learn something new, eh?

 

[plague311]

*boggle* right back at you.

A lie requires someone to understand the truth and then attempt to mislead someone else by saying something other than the truth. People who perceive the world in a different manner are not lying when they describe their world view. You can criticize them for being uninformed, biased, narrow-minded, willfully ignorant, or blind-to-evidence, but you cannot describe them as liars

They are lying though. This thread Travis started, while not really earth shattering, showed that they were knowingly lying. There are constant lies about provable things like global warming, Obamacare, the economy, Obama's birth certificate, etc.

If you are uninformed and continue to spout whatever you want without any evidence, you're lying. Ignorance isn't an excuse. If you say something that comes from a bias, and what you say is not truthful, you're lying. Bias isn't an excuse for making things up. You can apply that to each and every thing you listed. If you choose to have some defect that prevents you from telling the truth, especially if you're an elected official, then you're a liar. As a public official you probably shouldn't be spouting stupidity, you should shut your mouth until you know the facts. That goes for the right, the left, libertarians or any other political affiliation.

 

[Ladewig]

They are lying though. This thread Travis started, while not really earth shattering, showed that they were knowingly lying.

I think that is a bad example. I agree that everyone Travis cited was lying for monetary or political reason.

There are constant lies about provable things like global warming, Obamacare, the economy, Obama's birth certificate, etc.

Again, there is no shortage of liars related to those topics. On the other hand, people who believe those lies and repeat them, are not liars.

As I said, there has to be a) knowledge of the truth and b) an intent to deceive for someone to be correctly labelled as a liar. Not everyone who asserted that Obama was born in Kenya was a liar. If they believed what they heard and assumed that what was presented to them was valid evidence, then, as I said, you can validly accuse them of many other things, but they do not fit the definition of liar

 

[AdMan]

Lies and confirmation bias. Par for the course for the right wing these days.

Travis, I'm a proud liberal and progressive who probably agrees with you on many issues, but it is ironic you use the highlighted label when you make such a general claim as implied in the thread title based on an article in a far-right publication that likely few people have even heard of.

 

[Ziggurat]

Explain it either way! Hell, we both might learn something new, eh?

Two sources for the claim that conservatives lie more have been presented: snopes and politifact. The claim itself rests on both websites supposedly listing more conservative lies than liberal lies (I haven't bothered checking myself, but I'll assume this part is true).

But this is an invalid conclusion. Neither site lists every claim that conservatives and liberals make (a task beyond anyone's means), nor are they weighted in any way to reflect their prevalence/importance. They are a sample of conservative and liberal claims. But one cannot draw conclusions about the entire population of conservative and liberal statements based on the sample, unless you understand the relationship of the sample to the entire population. In particular, if you expect to do no adjustments to the raw data (as here), then the sample had better be a representative sample.

But nothing about the procedure that snopes or politifact follow does anything to ensure that the samples they present are representative. At every step of the process, there are opportunities to introduce sampling bias, and no measures to prevent it. So we have no way of knowing what the relationship between the sample and the total population is, and cannot draw any conclusions about the total population based on the characteristics of these samples.

Now, were you truly ignorant of this?

 

[spooky24]

"his failure to prosecute anyone in the financial industry for dishonest accounting and deceitful loan practices"

Just 'who' are you talking about?

If you are going to make accusations of criminal wrongdoing then be specific.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Just 'who' are you talking about?

If you are going to make accusations of criminal wrongdoing then be specific.

I'm not going to derail the thread with an argument that already played out in another thread. I don't buy the argument, 'there was no evidence of prosecutable violations'. If you believe that, that's not my problem.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not going to derail the thread with an argument that already played out in another thread. I don't buy the argument, 'there was no evidence of prosecutable violations'. If you believe that, that's not my problem.

You missed his point, which was the "who", not the "what".

So let's assume there were prosecutable violations, and sufficient evidence of them. Who has failed to prosecute them?

 

[sunmaster14]

<snip>

But the lies that are more problematic here are the ones where falsehoods are fabricated, then marketed.

Ok, let's take these one at a time:

Death Panels

Not a lie so much as a prediction. The law clearly creates an unelected committee of bureaucrats with the power to make cost-benefit decisions about what Medicare will cover, which can only be overridden by a supermajority in Congress. Personally, I think it's a necessary feature of government-paid health care. I would prefer that it not be insulated from Congress as much as it is, but ultimately, some bureaucrat will have to say "no, extending that person's life is not worth the cost." Calling that process a death panel, may be somewhat overheated rhetoric, but it is not a lie. If you decline coverage for a necessary treatment to extend a person's life, then you are condemning that person to an earlier death.

The ACA is socialized medicine

It makes health care more government controlled and subsidized than it was before. It is a matter of opinion as to when something crosses the line into "socialized" medicine, but I think the ACA does. For example, it is no longer possible to buy a private insurance plan that doesn't meet government coverage standards.

They're coming for your guns

It's a matter of opinion whether or not they really want to come for your guns. I think they do. I also think that they can't. So it's more of a warning to stay vigilant rather than a prediction about what will happen.

President Obama is an anti-American/Socialist/Communist/Muslim/anti-Christ/Fascist/non-American citizen dictator who hates our Constitution and Wants to Destroy the United States

A matter of opinion for most of that stuff. I don't actually think Obama hates our Constitution or wants to destroy the US, but I also don't think his actions are easily distinguishable from a President who would want to hurt the US. If there really was some sort of Manchurian candidate President, what would he be doing differently?

The Iran deal is dangerous

Well, it is. Hardly a lie.

Global Warming is a liberal invention

I think it's fair to say that liberals are stoking climate change alarmism in order to further their agenda of increased government control over the energy economy. It's like Rahm Emanuel's mantra: never let a crisis go to waste. Not really a crisis, but they're trying to make it seem like one.

<snip>

Both Sides Don’t Do It: Study Finds Republicans Lie Three Times More Than Democrats

Study: PolitiFact Says Republicans Lie Three Times More Often Than Dems

As Ziggurat has pointed out, it is embarrassing that anyone would cite such data as evidence. Politifact and Snopes are not only biased towards a liberal viewpoint when it comes to judging the truth of a statement, but they are also biased when it comes to selecting statements to analyze.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

If there really was some sort of Manchurian candidate President, what would he be doing differently?

Invading Iraq for no good reason then failing to secure the borders comes to mind.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Conservatives want to destroy all social safety nets and privatize most of the government. Of course they have to lie.

 

[Travis]

First off I'm a bit shocked that so many of you claim to have not heard of the Conservative Tribune. It shows up in my facebook feed with such regularity I can set my clock by it.

"Travis you think all the Muslims shouldn't be killed but read this!"
"Last week you argued Obama hadn't banned the Bible from the White House, well check this out!"
Travis, still don't think atheists are rapists? Well here's an article for you!"

and so on


But let us look at lies themselves. Lies are at the heart of mainstream conservatism. I challenge anyone to find a lie at the heart of mainstream liberalism.

• Mainstream conservatives think not only is climate change not happening but that there is no way humans could possibly cause it.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is a gun grabber. Someone that wouldn't think twice about using martial law to get all the guns.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama outlawed or greatly curbed border control and is letting everyone from Mexico in.
• Mainstream conservatives think universal healthcare will bankrupt the nation even though it has never bankrupted anyone else.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is banning books, flags and bad facebook posts.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama just gave Iran permission to get nuclear weapons.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama wants to destroy the economy to allow for some radical social restructuring.

So, what are the mainstream liberal lies?

 

[Ladewig]

Ok, let's take these one at a time:



Not a lie so much as a prediction. The law clearly creates an unelected committee of bureaucrats with the power to make cost-benefit decisions about what Medicare will cover, which can only be overridden by a supermajority in Congress. Personally, I think it's a necessary feature of government-paid health care. I would prefer that it not be insulated from Congress as much as it is, but ultimately, some bureaucrat will have to say "no, extending that person's life is not worth the cost." Calling that process a death panel, may be somewhat overheated rhetoric, but it is not a lie. If you decline coverage for a necessary treatment to extend a person's life, then you are condemning that person to an earlier death.

The lie was "Obamacare will create death panels." The lie was the word create. Insurance providers had already been using panels to decide who lives and dies based on cost.

 

[Ladewig]

First off I'm a bit shocked that so many of you claim to have not heard of the Conservative Tribune. It shows up in my facebook feed with such regularity I can set my clock by it.

Travis. I am very sympathetic with your situation. I can understand your rage at the Republican Party. That being said, I have to ask, ARE YOU ******* SERIOUS?!

You spend hours every single day scouring right-wing kook sites! OF COURSE, stories from right-wing kook sites are going to show up in a Facebook feed.
You know enough about skeptical thinking to know that your Facebook feed is not an independent measure of how well known a website is.

But let us look at lies themselves. Lies are at the heart of mainstream conservatism. I challenge anyone to find a lie at the heart of mainstream liberalism.

• Mainstream conservatives think not only is climate change not happening but that there is no way humans could possibly cause it.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is a gun grabber. Someone that wouldn't think twice about using martial law to get all the guns.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama outlawed or greatly curbed border control and is letting everyone from Mexico in.
• Mainstream conservatives think universal healthcare will bankrupt the nation even though it has never bankrupted anyone else.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is banning books, flags and bad facebook posts.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama just gave Iran permission to get nuclear weapons.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama wants to destroy the economy to allow for some radical social restructuring.

So, what are the mainstream liberal lies?

When you say mainstream conservatives, are you referring to rank and file members of the Republican electorate or are you talking about elected Republican officials holding national office? Also, are you talking about some mainstream conservatives believing this or the majority believing these things.

ETA
Have you ever thought of taking a sabbatical from tracking and investigating conservative websites? It might be good for your mental health to just step away from it all for a few months.

"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” Nietzsche​

It might be time to turn away from the abyss for awhile.

 

[sunmaster14]

First off I'm a bit shocked that so many of you claim to have not heard of the Conservative Tribune. It shows up in my facebook feed with such regularity I can set my clock by it.

"Travis you think all the Muslims shouldn't be killed but read this!"
"Last week you argued Obama hadn't banned the Bible from the White House, well check this out!"
Travis, still don't think atheists are rapists? Well here's an article for you!"

and so on


But let us look at lies themselves. Lies are at the heart of mainstream conservatism. I challenge anyone to find a lie at the heart of mainstream liberalism.

• Mainstream conservatives think not only is climate change not happening but that there is no way humans could possibly cause it.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is a gun grabber. Someone that wouldn't think twice about using martial law to get all the guns.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama outlawed or greatly curbed border control and is letting everyone from Mexico in.
• Mainstream conservatives think universal healthcare will bankrupt the nation even though it has never bankrupted anyone else.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama is banning books, flags and bad facebook posts.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama just gave Iran permission to get nuclear weapons.
• Mainstream conservatives think Obama wants to destroy the economy to allow for some radical social restructuring.

So, what are the mainstream liberal lies?

Apparently that mainstream conservatives believe the things you listed above.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Apparently that mainstream conservatives believe the things you listed above.

You're right. Just because most of the Conservatives in office say they believe those things, doesn't meant the mainstream Conservatives believe those things............

 

[JoeMorgue]

First off I'm a bit shocked that so many of you claim to have not heard of the Conservative Tribune. It shows up in my facebook feed with such regularity I can set my clock by it.

I guess some of us don't follow things just to have a steady stream of things to justify our outrage.

 

[sunmaster14]

The lie was "Obamacare will create death panels." The lie was the word create. Insurance providers had already been using panels to decide who lives and dies based on cost.

Actually, this was the "death panel lie" that Politifact cited as lie of the year in 2009 (by Sarah Palin):

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's ‘death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Can you find an actual lie in there?