Why did God create the tree of knowledge?

Iacchus said:
"There is a differency between a grub and a butterfly, yet your butterfly was a grub." ~ Shakespeare

That's a metaphor as it is used there, and are you going to rely on an Elizabethan to provide your terms?

Just because a poet or a dramatist uses a word in a certain way that does not make the word preferable for that use in all other cases.

You can Google the phrase and get the play, but who is it spoken in reference of? :p
 
Piscivore said:

You can Google the phrase and get the play, but who is it spoken in reference of? :p

It was spoken in reference to a PERSON?!

Well, then I guess that destroys whatever Iacchus' point was anyhow.
 
Piscivore said:


I'd bet money he Google'd "grub" and found the Shakespeare quote.

It's funny how the instant access to information that we enjoy in these modern times can often remind us of the difference between knowledge and intelligence. Anyone with a PC effectively has the knowledge of virtually anyone who ever wrote down a word.

But not neccessarily the intellect to apply that knowledge, as we see here at the JREF day, after day, after day.

Iacchus isn't even the best example of this behaviour at the JREF, as far as I'm concerned.

(Unrelated note: Your avatar looks a lot like the VW bus our CEO drives, and it kind of freaks me out. Is that your bus?)
 
scribble said:
(Unrelated note: Your avatar looks a lot like the VW bus our CEO drives, and it kind of freaks me out. Is that your bus?)

Yup. I doubt I ever would have picked out an orange car, but this one became available just when I was thinking about getting myself a vehicle (there's a longish story that goes with it that would make the woo-woo-'s ears twitch :)) Now that I do I love it.
 
There's always been some fundy wrangling about how long Adam and Eve were in the garden. Usually this is about making some apocalyptic chronological theory come out right.

But a close look at the text implies that it was less than one day. That is, that the fall from grace was a necessary last step in the creation of Man.
 
Piscivore said:

That's a metaphor as it is used there, and are you going to rely on an Elizabethan to provide your terms?
You betcha! ... "As sure as the day follows night." ;)
 
What do Grubs Know? / Reprise

Piscivore said:

Just because a poet or a dramatist uses a word in a certain way that does not make the word preferable for that use in all other cases.
Well, since nobody bothered to follow the link, maybe this will make it more plausible? ...

From the thread, What do Grubs Know?


What do grubs know, except perhaps intuitively, what it's like to be a butterfly?

Could it be this is a reflection of our own condition, where we too are earthbound and in need of a grubstake, as we look around with ravenous appetites and devour everything in sight?

It all seems kind of narrow-minded dosen't it? But then what does a grub know? Not much beyond being a grub I suppose ... but, there will come a time. ;)

Indeed, we go to the ends of he universe to discover the truth, with a slew of fancy instruments and calculations and God knows what else? (and only He can) but, when you get right down to it, what do we really know beyond what a grub knows, as we grub around in the dark?

But, there will come a time in the life of the grub when he says enough is enough, I've had it, leave me alone, I would like to lay down for awhile.

You see I've stripped the Tree of Knowledge bare, and now that I'm full (of myself?), what's the point? Where's the silken thread (wisdom) to this big walking sack of knowledge? I need some time to reflect.

Ah, what's that you say? Something is coming out my rear end? What? I have everything back to front? Could it be? Yes, there it is! ... The thread ... and, what does the thread say? 1 + 1 = 2. Wow! Even a little child can understand that! ... and therein lies the answer.

Perhaps what we need is to take some time out from our worldliness and reflect on why 1 + 1 = 2? For if in fact you can see this for yourself, without someone else to say it was so, then why isn't it possible to acknowledge the existence of God? Once again, if you were to ask little children about this, most would probably reply, "Yes."

And from the one mind we have fallen, to accept the two, and hence the knowledge of opposites. 1 + 1 = 2.
 
Re: What do Grubs Know? / Reprise

Iacchus said:
Ah, what's that you say? Something is coming out my rear end? What?

No, I said you're typing nothing but ◊◊◊◊. I can't see your rear end, I assume you type with your fingers.
 
plindboe said:
If he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it, why did he create it in the first place?
That sounds like a Homer Simpson question. "If pork chops are high in saterated fat, then why did scientists create the pig?" Maybe the hypothetical tree was hypothetically created to provide shade or to provide wood for furniture.

plindboe said:
Why was it placed in the middle of the garden?
I have no idea. You might as well ask why there's so much hydrogen in the universe. Hydrogen bombs are dangerous. Wouldn't the world be a safer place if hydrogen were a very rare element?

plindboe said:
And why was it beautiful when it apparently meant death to even touch it?
Why do foods that are high in sugar and fat taste good? Maybe the moral is that we should learn to judge things by their true essence rather than by mere appearances. Jesus said, "Clean the inside of the cup." Here the cup is a metaphor for the person. The inside is a metaphor for the real you.

plindboe said:
Why did he grant it the powers to give knowledge about good and evil, if he didn't want Adam and Eve to have that knowledge?
It sounds like a trap. Why put real cheese in a mousetrap?

plindboe said:
Why did he even care if Adam and Eve had that knowledge in the first place?
If you had adolescent children and you found out that they were trying to learn how to manufacture counterfeit money, then wouldn't you be concerned?
 
Re: Re: Why did God create the tree of knowledge?

The idea said:

Why do foods that are high in sugar and fat taste good? Maybe the moral is that we should learn to judge things by their true essence rather than by mere appearances. Jesus said, "Clean the inside of the cup." Here the cup is a metaphor for the person. The inside is a metaphor for the real you.


Are you saying it's a made-up story, a metaphor for something else?


It sounds like a trap. Why put real cheese in a mousetrap?

The Bible claims the "trap" as you call it was baited with REAL cheese. Have you read the Bible? They DEFINATLY gain the knowledge of Good and Evil - the reward for eating the fruit was no lie. There's no fake cheese.

If you had adolescent children and you found out that they were trying to learn how to manufacture counterfeit money, then wouldn't you be concerned?

I'm not sure. What was it God said when he threw them out of the Garden?

Oh yeah, it was, "They have eaten from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now we must cast them out, because now all they'll have to do is eat from the Tree of Eternal Life (and become immortal) and they'll be just as powerful as we (God) are!"*

You think abut that. And if you think I'm lying, go read the Bible. God is AFRAID of Adam and Eve because he FEARS they will become JUST AS POWERFUL AS HIM.

(*I mix singular and Plural for God above. The actual passage definately refers to plural Gods.)
 
Ipecac said:
Here's a question. Why the heck do we have to worship a "creator"?
You don't. It's sufficient to seek truth, to work for the implementation of justice, and to be generous.

Ipecac said:
For all intents and purposes, I "created" my kids.
A woman who knows very little about biochemistry can produce milk for her baby, but a rocket scientist who knows nothing about science cannot produce a functioning rocket. You excrete sweat. You don't create it the way that a perfume manufacturer creates perfume.

Ipecac said:
Yet I do not seek their worship; in fact if I did, people would be scandalized. If I created a lower life form, I certainly wouldn't want it to worship me.
Okay, but wouldn't you want it to be able to sit still long enough to attend a few classes and learn something so that it wouldn't rush off and destroy itself?

Ipecac said:
I didn't ask to be created.
That sounds rather childish. "I didn't ask to be born. Why should I have to go to school and learn how to read and write? I can just get a job as a baseball player."
 
The idea said:
Okay, but wouldn't you want it to be able to sit still long enough to attend a few classes and learn something so that it wouldn't rush off and destroy itself?

Again, bad analogy. You can't "destroy yourself" after you're an immortal, which is what God(s) was desperate to prevent. Have you read the story we are talking about here?
 
Re: Re: Re: Why did God create the tree of knowledge?

You think abut that. And if you think I'm lying, go read the Bible. God is AFRAID of Adam and Eve because he FEARS they will become JUST AS POWERFUL AS HIM.

(*I mix singular and Plural for God above. The actual passage definately refers to plural Gods.) [/B]
That was my thought.
That reminded me of the Tower Of Babel story.
God was upset that humans had bee working together and said Let us go down and confuse their laguage for look what they have done and there will be NOTHING they cannot do if they all work together.

Hmmmmmmm
 
plindboe said:
Hi Radrook, thanks for your long reply. Hope it's all right if I'm a little direct in mine. ;)

So in your opinion Gen 3:22 is false? (3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever)

Are you asking me to spice things up a bit?



How do you know that? Where in Genesis is that mentioned? Maybe he was just following orders from God, but was without morals.

A robotic Adam would have been an imperfect Adam.
What you are saying is that God created a robot.
If so, then God would have programmed that robot with the inability to disobey.
But Adam did disobey.
So he wasn't a programmed automaton.


Where does it say that? Maybe he did mistreat her.

Adam expressed appreciation for Eve when he poetically waxed melodic in appreciation for her company. There is absolutely no evidence which justifies your casting suspicion on his behavior.

BTW
The Bible also doesn't say that Adam never flew by flapping his arms, urinated molten gold, or preferred to eat elephant manure for supper. Such things remain unsaid because the readers of normal intelligence are expected to come to a reasonable conclusions without constantly being reminded of everything that is not directly said.


So he could remember how nonexistence felt like?


That is an impossibility.
There is no feeling in nonexistence.
Yet you do know that the absence of sense perceptions is not a condition that you prefer to be in. You also know that once you had no such perceptions because you were as yet not conceived or born.


Where does it say that?

Things need not be said in order for one to conclude.
If so then philosophy would not have developed very far.


In court, when a person is accused of a crime based on evidence, the person is considered innocent of crime until proven guilty. You seem to prefer not to consider Adam innocent until proven guilty. even though there is no evidence to indicate that he did anything wrong to Eve. Why?


I don't think you have argued well for such a conclusion, and you seem to have spiced the whole story up a lot with your own fantasies about the story.

Sorry you feel this way.

So you have chosen that this is symbolic.
Why can't the entire story might as well be symbolic then?


I don't choose.
I am guided.
I let the Bible itself idicate how things are to be undserstood.

The entire story cannot be symbolic because Jesus and his Apostles refer to it as historical fact.

Biblical Reverences to Genesis as Historical Fact.
http://www.varietygalore.shoppingcartsplus.com/page/page/1083181.htm


Maybe I have missed it, but where does it say that the snake is an "angelic son of God" & "spirit creature using the serpent as a puppet", thanks?


Maybe you did.

Revelation 12
9 The dragon was thrown down. He was that old snake who is called the devil and Satan. He fools all the people in the world. He was thrown down to earth and his angels were thrown down with him.

WE


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

KJV

That is not the only incident where an angel uses an animal as a puppet.


Lastly, I don't really think you answered the questions I posed. Ah, well.

God placed the tree in the Garden in order to give man an opportunity to demonstrate his appreciation for his creator by voluntarily being an obedient respectful son.
 
Scribble said:

You think abut that. And if you think I'm lying, go read the Bible. God is AFRAID of Adam and Eve because he FEARS they will become JUST AS POWERFUL AS HIM.

(*I mix singular and Plural for God above. The actual passage definately refers to plural Gods.)
psy kick said:

That was my thought.
That reminded me of the Tower Of Babel story.
God was upset that humans had bee working together and said Let us go down and confuse their laguage for look what they have done and there will be NOTHING they cannot do if they all work together.

Hmmmmmmm
God must be pretty wimpy then, huh?
 
Iacchus said:
God must be pretty wimpy then, huh?

You are the most blasphemous Christian I've ever read!!

And you're still incapable of comprehending simple english. All these comments suggest is that God is a JEALOUS GOD. Surely even you who have never read the Holy Bible have heard that phrase.

He doesn't want us to achieve His level of power. The Bible has said so. The very fact that we have not achieved His level of power pretty clearly makes *US* the wimpy ones, doesn't it?

Maybe I'm making assumptions here that aren't warranted. You are a Christian, aren't you? Do you take these same fingers that call God wimpy to church with you?! I would be ashamed.
 
scribble said:
Oh yeah, it was, "They have eaten from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now we must cast them out, because now all they'll have to do is eat from the Tree of Eternal Life (and become immortal) and they'll be just as powerful as we (God) are!"*

You think abut that.
I'm thinking. The situation is now X. To deal with it, Y must be done.

scribble said:
God is AFRAID of Adam and Eve because he FEARS they will become JUST AS POWERFUL AS HIM.
I don't detect an emotion of fear. I detect a simple, rational decision-making process. Are those who buy various kinds of insurance or install various kinds of safety devices in factories guilty of being fearful?

scribble said:
(*I mix singular and Plural for God above. The actual passage definitely refers to plural Gods.)
Your point is what? The Bible also refers to Satan and it doesn't seem that Satan has the powers of the boy next door. Maybe we can conceive of a distinction between the concept of a total number of gods equal to one versus an unknown number of gods one of whom deserves our full respect?
 
scribble said:

You are the most blasphemous Christian I've ever read!!
Glad to hear it! ... It's just a label anyway.


And you're still incapable of comprehending simple english. All these comments suggest is that God is a JEALOUS GOD. Surely even you who have never read the Holy Bible have heard that phrase.
Holy Bible? Wait a second, isn't that just a bit of leap of faith for you?


He doesn't want us to achieve His level of power. The Bible has said so. The very fact that we have not achieved His level of power pretty clearly makes *US* the wimpy ones, doesn't it?
Yes, but aren't you one of those who claim the Bible is full of discrepancies?


Maybe I'm making assumptions here that aren't warranted. You are a Christian, aren't you? Do you take these same fingers that call God wimpy to church with you?! I would be ashamed.
I Am that I am ...
 

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