Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

[AndrewIlluminatus]

Originally Posted by AndrewIlluminatus
Alternatively, hypothetically speaking, they may not be witting collaborators or conspirators in anything, but simply mind-control victims hypnotised to believe the "authorities" (media, politicians, teachers, parents, peers etc.) and to be good little patriots, nationalists and lovers of the great and infallible US of A. What any "US Regime Sponsored Conspiracy Theory Sceptics" like us are suggesting is literally inconceivable for them to accept. Google: "The Ultimate Revolution" lecture by Aldous Huxley at Berkley back in 1962 and you will see that this particular stage of human social development was fully predictable way back then. People who are suffering from having their minds hypnotically programmed for them by more "dominant alpha" types literally do appear to perceive what we might call "extrinsic reality" in a very odd manner. Watch any stage hypnotist at work or watch the literally ecstatic expressions and emotions shown on the faces of the German population in the brilliant propaganda movie "Triumph of the Will" by Leni Riefenstahl.

Or you guys could just be wrong.

Yes of course, we may be wrong. It may just be a very simple case of 19 grumpy people who hated freedom (and life) hijacking 4 aircraft and getting very lucky indeed to cause so much damage with just 3. I rather doubt it, especially after looking into the life of Mr Atta and his behaviour over the car hire etc. which tends to indicate to me that he did not expect or intend to go dead on 9/11. What sceptics of the "19 grumpy men conspiracy theory" have on their side though is that they are often sceptics of everything, not just the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. Even my own theories, which is why I usually only voice my subjective suspicions and I do not talk of absolute "truth" or "facts". On the other hand anybody who has ever "served" in any military, been a member of a religious cult like Christianity or a "brotherhood", or believed (on faith) teachers, politicians, parents, the media etc. is a mind control victim. Anybody who has ever been a nationalist or patriot or has ever made a pledge of allegiance to anything is, by definition, a mind control victim, and is a brainwashed sheep, a member of the economically farmed, domesticated, tamed, mind-controlled animals, down on "Animal Farm". Those kinds of domesticated people lose a lot of credibility with feral-minded sceptics like us, because the tamed sheep have demonstrated a long history of being hoaxed all their lives, with their silly beliefs in invisible gods and patriotism etc., because they are not feral-minded sceptics.

 

[Heiwa]

Heiwa says that you cannot drop a small piece of something onto another a larger piece of exactly the same construction and expect the smaller piece to crush the larger piece down to the ground using only gravity. This is exactly the official position on how the Towers collapsed.

Heiwa is so certain of his axiom hat he has offered one million dollars to anybody who can make an accurate model of this happening or provide a verifiable example in the history of the world of a comparable event taking place.

There are no takers Beachnut. Only talkers. Does that tell you nothing at all ?

The offer was made in the Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone thread with 2000+ posts and nobody was close. It does not need to be a model. Just a structure! Any size! It seems NASA, NIST, MIT, ASCE, &c have not been able to produce any structure that is close. If it exists, just take it out of the workshop and show it! Or the offer was too small? Maybe I should raise to 10?

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

I see. So the Twin Towers fell in 12 seconds, and a mathematical model predicts them falling in 12 seconds, but, because the mathematical model can't be definitive and accurate, that proves that the collapse was faster than it should have been. Well, that makes sense. I'm sure your wild guess is completely accurate.
Dave

My position is that the towers should not, in my opinion, have fallen so explosively like that at all from a fire damage and gravity, so not 12 seconds, 30 seconds or 30 minutes. I am thus very sceptical of the very low resistance kinetic energy explosiveness theory (or implosive theory for WTC7). The official WTC collapse theory was internally flawed for WTC2 when they officially said it fell in 10 seconds instead of 12, which the 30% use of gravitational energy (for all of the explosiveness) model required. I find the way of getting to the "initiation of the collapse" via the "single final straw truss and pancake theory" pretty implausible. Thereafter, the empirical visual data, the videos of the events of WTC2 for example, does not appear to me to support in any way a "coherent symmetrical hammer-load" falling on the intact tower below because the top tipped over and exploded upwards during the first two seconds of the event. The ripple-down, symmetrical, sequential, explosive, violently ejecting demolition, racing ahead of the recently disintegrated top load of WTC2 suggests to me that gravity played virtually no part at all in the witnessed explosiveness.

 

[Dave Rogers]

On the other hand anybody who has ever "served" in any military,

Nope.

been a member of a religious cult like Christianity or a "brotherhood",

Nope.

or believed (on faith) teachers,

Nope, I tended to make myself unpopular at school by pointing out where they were wrong.

politicians,

Don't make me laugh!

parents,

If I believed them on faith, I think they'd be seriously disappointed in me.

the media etc.

Again, don't make me laugh.

is a mind control victim.

Sounds like I'm not one of them, then.

Anybody who has ever been a nationalist or patriot

I quite like living in the country I live in, but I think that's more to do with the fact that it's quite a comfortable place to live than any "my country right or wrong" attitude, which I suspect is what you mean.

or has ever made a pledge of allegiance to anything

I may have made some kind of pledge to the Cub Scouts in the mid-1960's, but I didn't really mean it.

is, by definition, a mind control victim, and is a brainwashed sheep, a member of the economically farmed, domesticated, tamed, mind-controlled animals, down on "Animal Farm".

No, none of those apply to me. Would you like to come up with a different flimsy and illogical pretext for believing I'm automatically wrong about everything?

Dave

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

A group of famous individuals said: We Don't Need No.. Education".

Seriously, the funny thing is, you really don't see that applying to yourself do you?

We don't need no education
We don’t need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

Quite, educational brainwashing is an insidious state-sponsored mind control method of domesticating the "Animal Farm" sheep to be good little mindless, brainwashed, farmed, patriots, nationalists, religious cult followers like Christians/Jews/Muslims etc. Was that the point you wanted to make or do you think that being a mindless, domesticated and fully "educated" sheep (or an even stupider brick) is a good thing?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

The WTC towers fell due to impact damage and fires. I am not sure if this means Heiwa's OP is failed or his OP is just pure garbage; what do you think; is the WTC gravity collapse proof Heiwa's OP is wrong; failed? Or does Heiwa OP have some other delusional goal?

No, the WTC towers completely collapsed due to controlled demolition. That much is known and Heiwa is correct that the present official story is nonsense as part C would be destroyed before it ever accomplished the complete destruction of part A.

The only thing that isn't known for sure right now is exactly how it was done. We do know many of the possible methods and I think your mouth could certainly be a candidate. Were you in NYC that day? If so, it would explain a lot about your intransigent behavior towards those investigating this gigantic crime.

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

Sounds like I'm not one of them, then.
Dave

Good.

I may have made some kind of pledge to the Cub Scouts in the mid-1960's, but I didn't really mean it.
Dave

No I was thinking more of vile stuff like the US Pledge, that US children are reportedly inflicted with.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

A group of famous individuals said: We Don't Need No.. Education".

Seriously, the funny thing is, you really don't see that applying to yourself do you?

We don't need no education
We don’t need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

Quite, educational brainwashing is an insidious state-sponsored mind control method of domesticating the "Animal Farm" sheep to be good little mindless, brainwashed, farmed, patriots, nationalists, religious cult followers like Christians/Jews/Muslims etc. Was that the point you wanted to make or do you think that being a mindless, domesticated and fully "educated" sheep (or an even stupider brick) is a good thing?

 

[twinstead]

Somebody else created a great phrase that applies here: "Pot calling the kettle black"

 

[bill smith]

No, the WTC towers completely collapsed due to controlled demolition. That much is known and Heiwa is correct that the present official story is nonsense as part C would be destroyed before it ever accomplished the complete destruction of part A.

The only thing that isn't known for sure right now is exactly how it was done. We do know many of the possible methods and I think your mouth could certainly be a candidate. Were you in NYC that day? If so, it would explain a lot about your intransigent behavior towards those investigating this gigantic crime.

I think that this woman's presence may have had something to do with the Towers burnng down.
http://www.cnhan.com/img/2003-05/16/ent051611.jpg

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

Nope.

No, none of those apply to me. Would you like to come up with a different flimsy and illogical pretext for believing I'm automatically wrong about everything?

Dave

I am happy to hear that you are feral. I would not say that you are automatically wrong about everything (you are probably sometimes right and sometimes wrong I would guess) and I must admit that a feral-minded dismissive attitude of anything that the domesticated sheep may think is an example of prejudice. Just because so many people are evidently brainwashed domesticated sheep does not mean that we feral-minded sceptics should dismiss what they say they think without any further analysis. I have another prejudice to confess to, and that is that I distrust, with prejudice, the war criminal imperialist US Regime, because of history like The Maine, Northwoods, Tonkin Gulf and the USS Liberty and other Gleiwitz (Germany) or Manchurian Incident (Japan) type false pretexts for war. None of that means that the war criminal US regime necessarily lied about 9/11, but it does invite me to suspect that they might have. I might feel a little naïve if I trusted Imperialist Nazi Germany after Gleiwitz or Imperialist Nazi USA after Tonkin Gulf, hence a degree of prejudice. There is of course another reason why feral-minded people might find the 9/11 narrative offered right away by people like Jerome Hauer, within minutes on 9/11, attractive. That is because they actually sympathise with the aims of the 9/11 terrorist "chess move" and they wish to support people like Jerome Hauer and the other spokesmen for the terrorist narrative offered really rather too quickly to be accidentally "correct". These spokespeople for the 9/11 official terrorist Thesis famously reappeared, possibly with some embarrassment, in the short "9/11 Solutions" video, which "the powers that be" rather foolishly IMO tried, but failed, to suppress.
The 9-11 Solution -How the myth was sold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GDa-L4hHHo

 

[Dave Rogers]

I am happy to hear that you are feral.

Personally, I'm rather surprised to hear it. Your worldview, in which everyone is either a rebel or a sheep, seems far too limited to be of any practical use.

I have another prejudice to confess to, and that is that I distrust, with prejudice, the war criminal imperialist US Regime, because of history like The Maine, Northwoods, Tonkin Gulf and the USS Liberty and other Gleiwitz (Germany) or Manchurian Incident (Japan) type false pretexts for war.

I see. So your opinion of the USA is based on three events whose conspiratorial nature has never been proven, one that never even happened, and two that are irrelevant. Could I remind you that this is a forum for discussing skepticism, and that self-referential and self-reinforcing belief systems aren't generally held in high regard?

Dave

 

[AndrewIlluminatus]

Personally, I'm rather surprised to hear it. Your worldview, in which everyone is either a rebel or a sheep, seems far too limited to be of any practical use.
Dave

I did not say "rebel or sheep", I said feral. Feral minded people also make up the most effective oligarchs to farm the sheep. They are not really "rebels" at all, but just very good managers of the "common herd" of profane cattle.

I see. So your opinion of the USA is based on three events whose conspiratorial nature has never been proven, one that never even happened, and two that are irrelevant. Could I remind you that this is a forum for discussing skepticism, and that self-referential and self-reinforcing belief systems aren't generally held in high regard?
Dave

Actually my rather low opinion of the "USA" imperialist entity is mainly based on the USA inventing the Tonkin Gulf pretext for war and then killing 3 or 4 million innocent people in a profitable war of aggression. That the Tonkin Gulf incident never actually happened is a matter of recorded history. I have admitted that I have a prejudice against the USA for being a genocidal and evil regime in history, but I have also said that being prejudiced does not mean that I think that the civilian US regime necessarily also conducted 9/11 in a Tonkin Gulf manner. That is, with the civilian guys like Bush "calling the shots", as in "inside job" theories. My suspicion is that 9/11 was possibly more of a coup, so it was not really like Tonkin Gulf at all. So yes I remain a sceptic of the "9/11 19 grumpy people Thesis theory" that you appear to favour and the broad "Inside job" theory that appears to me to be a managed Antithesis in the Hegelian dialectic.
"The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves." Lenin
You, on the other hand, appear to me to be utterly convinced (or you seem to say you are) of the official 19 grumpy people conspiracy theory with absolutely no scepticism, or doubt in your own opinions, on show whatsoever.

French Circles Confirm Thesis:
Coup Attempt Unfolding In U.S.
by Helga Zepp LaRouche
November 15, 2001
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/strategic/hzl_lemonde_11-01.html
This statement was issued by Helga Zepp LaRouche, President of the International Schiller Institutue, and Chairman of the Civil Rights Movement Solidarity in Germany, from Mainz on November 15, 2001. It's full title was "French Intelligence Circles Confirm Thesis Of An Attempted Military Coup In The U.S.A.: Challenge to the legitimacy of use of Article 5 of NATO Treaty."

In a series of exposés (see appended extracts), the leading French daily newspapers Le Monde and Le Figaro have refuted the officially adopted theory that Osama bin Laden was the sole instigator of the Sept. 11 attacks. The French intelligence-linked newsletter Reseau Voltaire even went so far, in its Sept. 27 issue, as to explicitly confirm Lyndon LaRouche's thesis that the Sept. 11 attacks on Washington and New York were part of an attempted coup, being run by extremist military circles within the United States.

On Sept. 11, during a live radio interview, which happened to be on the air as the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were unfolding, Lyndon LaRouche presented the thesis that an operation on this scale, and with this degree of precision, could only have been coordinated by criminal elements within and around the military and security apparatus of the United States itself.

The fact that sources in French intelligence have now not only adopted this thesis, but have begun to elaborate it with a plethora of questions concerning the many features of the Sept. 11 events that simply do not add up, has the greatest possible bearing on the current debate whether Bundeswehr [German army] troops should participate in military action in Afghanistan. For, if the primary movers behind the attacks are not bin Laden and Islamic terrorist circles, but rather are circles in the U.S.A. itself, then, obviously, the entire rationale for invoking Article 5 of the NATO treaty, would crumble to nothing.

More important still: If, as Reseau Voltaire's Sept. 27 issue put it ("Informational Note 235-236"), it were to turn out that this attempted military coup was "carried out by American extremists who were capable of provoking a nuclear war," then, obviously, this would need to be thoroughly investigated, and would require a major debate on security policy. An extremely important question in this connection, would be to determine precisely what motivated Russian President Putin, immediately following the attacks, to phone President Bush to inform him that Russian nuclear forces had not been put into a heightened state of alert.

At a time such as today, when it is a question not merely of the vote on whether to deploy the Bundeswehr, and not merely of the future of the red-green coalition [government] in Berlin, but rather, of Germany's most vital security interests, it is these matters which must be placed at the center of all discussion. What we urgently require, is a sober analysis of the entire situation, drawing upon the knowledge of experienced forces in our military and security sectors.

Appendix:

Sept. 27, 2001: The monthly French newsletter Reseau Voltaire writes on its website (www.reseauvoltaire.com) that "extremist American circles attempted on Sept. 11 to carry out a military coup against the U.S. government." In its full printed text, Reseau Voltaire's Sept. 27, 2001 issue goes so far as to state that:

"From 10:00 A.M. to approximately 8:00 p.m. [on Sept. 11], U.S. government officials were not thinking that this was the work of Arab terrorists, but rather that it was an expression of a military coup being carried out by U.S.-based extremists who were capable of provoking a nuclear war."

Oct. 16: Reseau Voltaire publishes information on secret financial connections between American circles and bin Laden. Among these are mentioned the infamous Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), which had already been deeply involved in the Iran-Contra affair.

Oct. 31: The French newspaper Le Figaro reports on its front page, that official U.S. circles had ongoing relations with Osama bin Laden up through July 2001. This information is confirmed the following day by the French government-controlled station Radio France International.

Nov. 12: France's leading daily Le Monde takes up the threads of the same story, by prominently running an extensive review of the book La Verité interdite (The Forbidden Truth), whose two authors are well-connected to French intelligence and government circles. The review, titled "When Washington Negotiated with the Taliban," reports on how, prior to Sept. 11, the Bush Administration was engaged in intensive negotiations with the Taliban.

What is crucial about these media reports, is not whether or not they match the truth on every single point; what is crucial, is their intention to halt the process of a surreptitious coup in the United States that began with the Sept. 11 events. There are many political circles—not only in France, but also in other European countries, and in Russia—who know that the attacks on New York and Washington were not a "terrorist attack," but rather a political operation of truly staggering strategic dimensions.

Chapter IX in "9/11 Synthetic Terror, Made in the USA" by Webster Griffin Tarpley.
Excerpt:
IX: "ANGEL IS NEXT" – THE INVISIBLE GOVERNMENT SPEAKS
From 10:00 a.m. to approximately 8:00 p.m. (on Sept. 11), U.S. government officials were not thinking that this was the work of Arab terrorists, but rather that it was an expression of a military coup being carried out by U.S.-based extremists who were capable of provoking a nuclear war. Réseau Voltaire, Paris, September 27, 2001

"ANGEL IS NEXT"
According to Bob Woodward’s canonical mainstream account: "At about 10:30 AM Cheney reached Bush again on Air Force One, which was still on its way toward Washington. The White House had received a threat saying, ‘Angel is next.’ Since Angel was the codeword for Air Force One, it could mean that terrorists had inside information." Allegedly because of this report, Cheney argued that Bush should not return to Washington. "There’s still a threat," said Cheney. (Woodward 18) Within minutes, the plane turned away from Washington and flew to Louisiana instead. (Washington Post, January 27, 2002) Was this now a third threat, after the post-Booker threat and the "Air Force One is next" threat? Did the terrorist controllers now add the code word "Angel" to further document their insider status, and their possible access to nuclear codes? Or are we dealing with two versions of the same threat?

Apparent "whistle-blowing" attempts, possibly by counter-coup factions, before 9/11.
The Coup Party Music album cover of July 2001
http://www.arsenalofhypocrisy.com/911/9-11_Truth_files/image002.jpg

Lone Gunman Pilot Episode spring 2001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6EWF3vulc

Bertram Byers: "Depends on who your terrorists are."
Byers: "The men who conceived of it in the first place. You're saying our government plans to commit a terrorist act against a domestic air..."
Bertram Byers: "There you go, indicting the entire government as usual. It's a faction, a small faction..."
Byers: "For what possible gain?"
Bertram Byers: "The Cold War's over, John. But with no clear enemy to stockpile against, the arms market's flat. But bring down a fully-loaded 727 into the middle of New York City; you'll find a dozen tin-pot dictators all over the world, just clamouring to take responsibility. And begging to be smart bombed."
Byers: "I can't believe it; this is about increasing arms sales?"
Bertram Byers: "Mm-hmm."
Byers: "When?"
Bertram Byers: "Tonight."
Byers: "How are you going to stop them? Why didn't you tell the world this? Go to the press?"
Bertram Byers: "You think I'd still be drawing breath 30 minutes after I made that call? The press? Who's going to run this story?"
Byers: "We would."
Bertram Byers: "This?" [He picks up one of the newspapers] "This is birdcage liner. Wild-eyed crap right up there with, Elvis is an alien and two-headed babies."
Byers: "You obviously read it."
Bertram Byers: "Don't be so damn naive. You think this is going to save the world? I'm doing what I can, John. I don't have all the specifics on Scenario 12D. But I think I know the flight they've chosen. You stay out of it. I don't want Overlord gunning for you too."

 

[twinstead]

I see. So your opinion of the USA is based on three events whose conspiratorial nature has never been proven, one that never even happened, and two that are irrelevant. Could I remind you that this is a forum for discussing skepticism, and that self-referential and self-reinforcing belief systems aren't generally held in high regard?

Self-referential/self-reinforcing belief systems ROCK!

 

[alienentity]

I suspect that this alleged "fact" is up for debate because it is rather difficult exactly to time when the roof level would have reached street level when that event in time was completely obscured, by the dust cloud. What was perhaps more interesting was the smooth resistance free drop of the roof line in the initial couple of seconds that showed no structural integrity in the entire building, whatsoever, remained, just after loud explosions were heard, that appeared to precede the "collapse process". Moreover we have video evidence that the building was about "to blow up" so people nearby should move back.

Sorry, Andrew. Again, you do not have a grasp of the facts. Simply observe one of my videos, for example
http://tinyurl.com/ctgt5z


and you can see this for yourself. If you're going to purport to deal in facts, shouldn't you have a few? So far you're batting a pretty poor average, dude.

 

[twinstead]

I did not say "rebel or sheep", I said feral. Feral minded people also make up the most effective oligarchs to farm the sheep. They are not really "rebels" at all, but just very good managers of the "common herd" of profane cattle.

You are an extremist, no less so than the worst right-wing globalist neocon. You're just the other side of the ideolgical coin.

Extremists are the worst investigators EVER. Like throwing out the high and low when figuring out a percentage, your opinions should be thrown out--you're bring the curve down.

 

[Seymour Butz]

as part C would be destroyed before it ever accomplished the complete destruction of part A.

Why would it need to?

All C needs to do is destroy a few floors, then C and the now-destroyed A parts destroy the lower parts of A. As material falls "over the side", it will be replaced by newly destroyed material from both A and C.

 

[nicepants]

Heiwa is so certain of his axiom hat he has offered one million dollars to anybody who can make an accurate model of this happening or provide a verifiable example in the history of the world of a comparable event taking place.

There are no takers Beachnut. Only talkers. Does that tell you nothing at all ?

It should tell *YOU* something.

It should tell you that Heiwa hasn't been able to convince any of us that he actually has one million dollars or would be willing to pay out anything at all.

Myriad offered to take the challenge provided that the terms are drawn up as a legal contract and 100,000 of the money held in escrow. Heiwa has not accepted.

 

[nicepants]

No, the WTC towers completely collapsed due to controlled demolition. That much is known and Heiwa is correct that the present official story is nonsense as part C would be destroyed before it ever accomplished the complete destruction of part A.

You must then think that the only mousetraps which should have gone off in this video are the ones that were initially hit by the first ball. One ball sets off one trap...

..but what happens with the ball from the 2nd trap? It joins the first and continues to bounce and set off additional traps...

Disclaimer to truthers: I'm not saying that the WTC towers were like mousetraps or ping-pong balls....I'm simply illustrating a CONCEPT which you seem to be unable to grasp.

 

[alienentity]

No, the WTC towers completely collapsed due to controlled demolition. That much is known.....

A nice demonstration of your incompetence, Tony. Remember this axiom - your inability to understand things which more qualified and competent people do makes your belief incorrect, not the other way around.

Again, as with Heiwa, your inability to recognize and accept the best analysis prevents you from reaching the correct conclusion. Further the errors you guys are making are not minor or trivial - they are fundamental.

I would hasten to add that, when you were preparing your last article to be published in J.O.N.E.S. (Journal of Nine Eleven Studies) you would have been well advised to consult with a top SE well versed in the area relevant to your inquiry - instead of relying on only yourself and Graeme MacQueen. (I've no idea what combined experience in high-rise design the two of you possess, but it appears to be zero.) Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't find a list of buildings you've designed in your CV..

Anyway, I guess if accuracy and truth are not important to you, this is all irrelevant. If you want to be perpetually on the wrong side of the facts, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect any laurels from people who do care about those things, and who don't care to reward incompetence.

Hey, you probably have the admiration and respect of AndrewIlluminatus, for what that's worth....