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Who started both World Wars?

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I'm not sure if there would have been a high probability of a world war if Germany was communist in the mid 20s. I only say that because it would be similar to the cold war and although there were proxy wars and some hot moments, no world wide war commenced during the cold war. However I'm open minded to what other people think.

Well in the back of my mind I can seen Spain Italy against France and Germany. Britian and or the US may have come as a foil for Soviet support. The Pacific War would have ran itself out pretty much as it did
 
Well in the back of my mind I can seen Spain Italy against France and Germany. Britian and or the US may have come as a foil for Soviet support. The Pacific War would have ran itself out pretty much as it did

Coupla points work against the idea of a left v. right war with France/Germany v. Spain/Italy:

(1) It's likely Spain wouldn't have gone fascist if it hadn't had support from Germany.

(2) It's even more likely considering that this scenario presupposes Stalin's support for a popular front in Germany, which means he probably would have also allowed one in Spain, i.e., a real one and not allowing one in theory and then undermining it by wiping out the POUM and PSOE.

Turns out a foreign policy of popular fronts might have been a clean sweep for Stalin in the west. If he'd stuck to that "socialism in one country" idea, then it might have averted a war in Europe altogether.
 
Italy gave more support to Fascist Spain than did Germany. Mussolini had over 75,000 men in Spain while the total number of Germans was around 15,000.


A left vs right war? Possible, it might have been that Mussolini might have done something more stupid than usual and started a war in the Balkans or Stalin might have invaded Persia or Turkey or the Baltic states.

To many variables to really comprehend
 
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Italy gave more support to Fascist Spain than did Germany. Mussolini had over 75,000 men in Spain while the total number of Germans was around 15,000.

True, but the Luftwaffe played rather a major role as well. I would argue a more important role, when you get right down to it. Didn't the Luftwaffe, e.g., take out the Durruti Column?

A left vs right war? Possible, it might have been that Mussolini might have done something more stupid than usual and started a war in the Balkans or Stalin might have invaded Persia or Turkey or the Baltic states.

I was more responding to the notion of France and Germany fighting against Spain and Italy. What, other than ideology, would motivate such alliances (that is, given a popular front government in Germany)?

To many variables to really comprehend

The mind reels.
 
Well in the back of my mind I can seen Spain Italy against France and Germany. Britian and or the US may have come as a foil for Soviet support. The Pacific War would have ran itself out pretty much as it did
Good point. I totally forgot about the pacific war....silly me.
 
Coupla points work against the idea of a left v. right war with France/Germany v. Spain/Italy:

(1) It's likely Spain wouldn't have gone fascist if it hadn't had support from Germany.

(2) It's even more likely considering that this scenario presupposes Stalin's support for a popular front in Germany, which means he probably would have also allowed one in Spain, i.e., a real one and not allowing one in theory and then undermining it by wiping out the POUM and PSOE.

Turns out a foreign policy of popular fronts might have been a clean sweep for Stalin in the west. If he'd stuck to that "socialism in one country" idea, then it might have averted a war in Europe altogether.


No chance in Hell Stalin would have allowed a real popular front in Spain, if the behavior of the Communist during the Spanish Civil War is any indication,where they spend as much time fighting other "heretic" Socialist group as fighting the Fascists. Read Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia" for examples.
I am one of those who thinks that by mid 1938, Democracy was dead in Spain no matter who won. It was,sadly, by then a choice of while brand of Totalrianism prevailed.
 
No chance in Hell Stalin would have allowed a real popular front in Spain, if the behavior of the Communist during the Spanish Civil War is any indication,where they spend as much time fighting other "heretic" Socialist group as fighting the Fascists. Read Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia" for examples.

I'm aware and I've read that book a few times. The assumption here was based on the idea that Hitler acceded to power in Germany in part because Stalin wouldn't allow a popular front in Germany. From there, I'd gone on the assumption that the existence of a popular front in Germany might have contributed to Stalin allowing one in Spain.

Clearly, however, Stalin learned his lesson in Spain, as he did allow a popular front in France.

I am one of those who thinks that by mid 1938, Democracy was dead in Spain no matter who won. It was,sadly, by then a choice of while brand of Totalrianism prevailed.

I tend to agree, and I'd add that it was pretty much the case for continental Europe in general.
 
Spin-off from the holocaust thread.

So who started WW1 and WW2? 'Easy', the average Anglo will say, 'The Germans!'... and he will continue to chew on his bagel and listen to the monotonous rap on his iPod.

I don't think anybody claims that Germany started WW1. The flashpoint for the war was the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, heir to the Austrian throne, by terrorists of the Serbian "Black Hand" organisation, who were seeking to create a greater Serbia or "South Slavia" (Yugo means South in Serbian). Austria wanted to punish Serbia for the assassination, but Serbia was protected by Russia through pan-slavicism. The network of alliances that had been built up across Europe meant that Austria's and Russia's allies were drawn into the conflict, which should otherwise have been a relatively localised dispute in the Balkans.

Hitler admired Britain. He sincerely thought that the English were on the same level as the Germans (a colossal blunder)

I'm not clear what you mean by this. In Hitler's monumentally turgid tome "Mein Kampf" I recall him discussing possible allies for Germany and named England as one of them, but he did not say much in admiration.

In his phantasy [sic] he had plans to extend and prolongue European rule. Hitler wanted colonies or Lebensraum as he called it in the East and he was perfectly willing to let Britain keep the 25% of the planet it already had acquired as their Lebensraum. He was even prepared to deliver troops in the support of the Empire. Hitler never wanted to attack Britain.

That much is true, his interest was, as you say, expanding Germany westward and clearing Poland and the Ukraine of Slavs, who he regarded as sub-human, and colonising these areas with Germans.

But note that it was Hitler's expansionist ideas that started the war.

It was sheer stupidity of Chamberlain to hand out a blanque [sic] cheque to the Poles that whatever they would do the Brits would come to their aid in case of an attack by Germany. What Chamberlain should have done was put pressure on the Poles to make concessions in the Danzig case. Danzig was a 97% German city and wanted to return to the Reich. But the Poles refused to cooperate with the British garantee in their pocket. Then there was increased border tension and next the Germans decided to take back what they considered theirs after they had made an agreement with the Soviets.

Okay, let's step back a little, shall we. By the time of the invasion of Poland, Germany had already engaged in three acts of aggression.

(1) The "Anschluss", in which German forces invaded Austria. Austria was engaged in a plebiscite to determine whether to remain independent, but Hitler wasn't in a mood to wait for a result or accept a "No" to union with Germany.

(2) The annexation of the Sudeten lands. This is an interesting episode, because Chamberlain and the French PM bent over backwards to guarantee peace, and he allowed Hitler to take over the Sudeten lands, in return for a "guarantee" from Hitler that he was not interested in war. Of course, Hitler had no intention of stopping at the Sudetenland. He went on to occupy the whole of Czechoslovakia.

Thus the French and British realised that they could not avert war with Germany by appeasement, and gave guarantees to Poland that they would defend it from German aggression.

(3) When the Germans invaded Poland in their third act of aggression, Britain and France honoured those agreements and went to war with Hitler. Nevertheless it was Hitler's persistent policy of aggression in pursuit of his idea of a greater Germany, that caused the war.

Bu hey, what's a few pesky facts for "historical revisionists"?
 
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Just to add a detail which "post-hoc-justifiers' love to forget

The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans. The ground was taken after WWI by the Versailles treason which also contained the War Guilt lie. That doesn't make the lucky winners and war profiteurs to legal owners for eternity with the license to mistreat German minorities. This "I am Big and Mighty" pose was only possible because the German army was cut to a size half of the size of the army of Switzerland. As consequence paramilitary troops (the Communist "Rote Frontkämpfer"Brigades had 600.000 men; Stahlhelm (nationalist conservative) had 200.000 and also 200.000 had the "Reichsbanner Schwarz Rot Gold" of the independent social democrates USPD fought openly in the streets since 1919. Two Red Armies, supported by the Bolshevist Russian Regime, were in existence (Bayern and Ruhr Red Armies). Under these conditions it was easy for the Polish Army High Command to reply on German demands of border revisions: "The mighty Polish Army will draw the new border through the centre of Berlin". That noise was remarkably muted after it was realised that the Wehrmacht had more than 100.000 lightly armed wildlife rangers.
The mouth became bigger again after the British blanco cheque to Poland.
On August 25, 1939 Hitler told France he bore no enmity toward France, did not want war, but rather good relations with her. ("The Polish provocation, however, has placed the Reich in a position which cannot be allowed to continue. . . . Not only has the Warsaw Government rejected, my proposals, but it has subjected the German minority, our blood brothers, to the worst possible treatment, and has begun mobilization. . . . No nation worthy of the name can put up with such unbearable insults. France would not tolerate it any more than Germany. These things have gone on long enough, and I will reply by force to any further provocations. . . ." French, No. 242, pp.

Latest on this date A.H.'s position was known.

On August 30, 1939 : Lord Halifax warned Poland to abstain from violence and stop inflammatory radio propaganda. ("Atmosphere may be improved if strict instructions are given or confirmed by Polish Government to all their military and civil authorities. . . . Not to fire on fugitives or members of the German minority who cause trouble, but to arrest them; to abstain themselves from personal violence to members of German minority, . . . to allow members of German minority wishing to leave Poland to pass freely; to stop inflammatory radio propaganda." Ibid., No. 85, p. 182.)

Why were the Poles playing as if they had been the peaceful personification of Innocence, brutally ambushed by barbaric Huns? They had willingly provocated the war, perhaps underestimating the Wehrmacht's capacity, but that doesn't make them heroes.

One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.


Thanks
 
The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans.
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"So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbände bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen."

"Danzig ist nicht das Objekt, um das es geht. Es handelt sich für uns um die Erweiterung des Lebensraumes im Osten und Sicherstellung der Ernährung, sowie der Lösung des Baltikum-Problems."
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That doesn't make the lucky winners and war profiteurs to legal owners for eternity with the license to mistreat German minorities.
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In what way were they being mistreated? Were they prohibited from engaging in certain occupations? Were they only allowed to leave the country by leaving behind most of their worldly goods? Were they being rounded up and restricted to ghettos?
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Under these conditions it was easy for the Polish Army High Command to reply on German demands of border revisions: "The mighty Polish Army will draw the new border through the centre of Berlin".
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Citation?
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On August 25, 1939 Hitler told France he bore no enmity toward France, did not want war, but rather good relations with her. ("The Polish provocation, however, has placed the Reich in a position which cannot be allowed to continue. . . . Not only has the Warsaw Government rejected, my proposals, but it has subjected the German minority, our blood brothers, to the worst possible treatment, and has begun mobilization. . . . No nation worthy of the name can put up with such unbearable insults. France would not tolerate it any more than Germany. These things have gone on long enough, and I will reply by force to any further provocations. . . ." French, No. 242, pp.
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Try a proper citation next time -- you appear to mean the the French Yellow Book #242, and it is only a single page document. It documents a phone call regarding a meeting between Hitler and the French Ambassador during which Hitler stated this.

However, you neglect to mention that M. Coulondre, at that same meeting, stated in no uncertain terms later in the interview that "... I emphatically gave him my word of honour as a soldier that I had no doubt whatever that in the event of Poland's being attacked, France would assist her with all the forces at her command."
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One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.


I reserve the right (within forum rules of course) to kick stupidity in the shins rather than be all kind and considerate to it.
 
The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans.

Which is why he occupied the Czech Republic...that well known centre of German nationhood.

So, as asked of 911, after March 1939 why should anyone trust a word Hitler said?
 
The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans. The ground was taken after WWI by the Versailles treason
Up to the invasion of Poland, none of the lands annexed by Hitler had been taken off Germany by the Versailles treaty. Austria, Sudetenland and the rest of Bohemia and Moravia had been part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and by no means "German soil" since at least the dissolution of the German Confederation in 1866. I'm also looking forward to substantiation of your claim that, e.g., Prague had 95% German inhabitants. :rolleyes: And Sudetenland had been part of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown going back to the 900s.

by the Versailles treason which also contained the War Guilt lie.
More properly called the War Guilt Myth. The clause merely affixed German responsibility for the damage suffered by the Allies, and was identically present in the treaties with Austria and Hungary.

Besides that, we've already discussed in this thread how Germany egged Austria on to go to war with Serbia.

As consequence paramilitary troops (the Communist "Rote Frontkämpfer"Brigades had 600.000 men; Stahlhelm (nationalist conservative) had 200.000 and also 200.000 had the "Reichsbanner Schwarz Rot Gold" of the independent social democrates USPD fought openly in the streets since 1919.
You surely can back up these numbers? And what year are you talking about? The USPD ceased to exist in 1924 while the KPD only reached meaningful numbers through the demise of the USPD. You're sure the Reichsbanner wasn't dominated by the MSPD. :rolleyes: Here a couple of choice quotes from wiki:
Ihre mehr oder weniger erzwungene Einordnung fand schließlich zu einem großen Teil im vertrauten Terrain statt, das sich häufig nur von einer unterschiedlichen politischen Vorstellung unterschied: In den nach 1924 sich entwickelnden überwiegend großen zentralen Frontkämpferverbänden. Allein rund drei Millionen Männer waren im republiktreuen Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold und ungefähr 400.000 im rechtsorientierten Traditionalistenbund Stahlhelm organisiert. Dazu kamen der Jungdeutsche Orden, viele kleine regionale Kampf- und Ordnergruppen, schwarze Reichswehrverbände, die vielfach zerschlagene und verbotene SA und 50.-100.000 Rote Frontkämpfer.
and about Stahlhelm:
Die Mitgliederzahl vergrößerte sich bis 1930 auf über 500.000 Mitglieder. Der Stahlhelm war somit nach dem Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold der zweitstärkste paramilitärische Verband der Weimarer Republik.
and about the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold:
Dem Reichsbanner gehörten 1932 nach eigenen Angaben über drei Millionen Mitglieder an.
Quite some different numbers than you cite. :rolleyes: And I fail to see what these numbers have to do with the "Germanness" of the territories Hitler annexed.

Under these conditions it was easy for the Polish Army High Command to reply on German demands of border revisions: "The mighty Polish Army will draw the new border through the centre of Berlin".
Care to backup that quote? Preferably not with a link to Stormfront. And again, I fail to see what this has to do with Hitler's annexations before September 1, 1939. :rolleyes: For completeness' sake, it is worth pointing out that the border between Poland and Germany in 1919 was drawn based on majority ethnicity.

One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.
The difference is obvious. They're not willful liars. Liars deserve nothing but contempt, the more so when they try to repeat their lies.
 
One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.


Thanks

No need for the quote marks around dafydd,it's my real name. It's not arrogance to loath Holocaust deniers. Nazis are the scum of the earth and deserve all they get.
 
If you prefer quotations in German:

Die Rückendeckung vor allem durch Frankreich war auch der Grund dafür, daß der polnische Imperialismus auch nach Inkrafttreten des Versailler Diktats und somit der Beendigung des Kriegszustandes noch in Oberschlesien weitere Industriegebiete an sich bringen konnte. Das Ergebnis einer Volksabstimmung von 1921, in der sich die Oberschlesier mehrheitlich für den Verbleib bei Deutschland aussprachen, wurde von den Siegermächten des Ersten Weltkriegs ebenso ignoriert wie sie es deutschen Freiwilligenverbänden unmöglich machten, Oberschlesien gegen den Einfall bewaffneter polnischer Banden wirksam zu verteidigen. Aber selbst das reichte den Machthabern in Warschau nicht.

In Polen propagierte man unablässig den Gedanken, in das militärisch fast völlig wehrlose Deutsche Reich einzufallen und die polnische Grenze noch weiter nach Westen zu verschieben. Die Regierungen der Weimarer Republik hatten ständig mit einer polnischen Invasion zu rechnen. Es gab in der polnischen Öffentlichkeit unterschiedliche Meinungen darüber, wie weit Polen seinen Machtbereich ausdehnen sollte. Daß man von Deutschland aber mindestens noch Ostpreußen, Danzig, Pommern, Schlesien und Teile Brandenburgs annektieren und die Bewohner dieser Gebiete aus ihrer Heimat vertreiben sollte, wurde von vielen Polen als unumgänglich und historisch gerechtfertigt angesehen. Als begründet hat man aber auch die Ausdehnung des polnischen Staatsgebiets bis zu einer Linie betrachtet, die östlich von Bremen, Hannover, Kassel und Nürnberg verlief. Ein sogenannter polnischer >Westmarkenverein< rief unermüdlich zur Eroberung deutschen Gebiets auf.

http://www.mies-pilsen.de/imperial.htm

If not:

There were four major obstacles to a German-Polish understanding after the Munich conference. The most important of these was the notion of Polish leaders that the defeat of Germany in a new war would serve the
interests of Poland. The prevalence of this attitude after the death of Pilsudski was implicit in the Polish attempt to foment a war against Germany during the Rhineland crisis of March 1936. There were two primary reasons for this Polish attitude. There was the idea that Poland could not really attain the status of a European Great Power if she
was overshadowed by any of her immediate neighbors. There was the dissatisfaction with the territorial provisions of the Versailles Treaty, and the hope of Polish leaders that future territorial expansion at German expense would be possible. Neither of these reasons would have carried much weight after Munich had the British not reverted to a hostile policy toward Germany.


The fourth obstacle to a German-Polish understanding was the ruthless Polish treatment of minorities. This concerned primarily the Polish mistreatment of the Germans, but the Polish attempt to strand more than 50,000 of
their Jewish nationals in the Reich, in 1938, also had a bad effect on German-Polish relations. The Polish policy in this maneuver to rid Poland of a large number of Polish Jews was both cruel and audacious. The step itself is not
comprehensible unless one takes account of the rising tide of anti-Jewish feeling in Poland early in 1938.


http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/David Hoggan-The Forced War.pdf

http://www.swg-hamburg.de/Archiv/Be...c/Die_polnische_Mobilmachung_im_Marz_1939.pdf
 
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"So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbände bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen."

"Danzig ist nicht das Objekt, um das es geht. Es handelt sich für uns um die Erweiterung des Lebensraumes im Osten und Sicherstellung der Ernährung, sowie der Lösung des Baltikum-Problems."



Citation?



Try a proper citation next time --
 
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