Who started both World Wars?

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MaxMurx said:
The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans. The ground was taken after WWI by the Versailles treason which also contained the War Guilt lie. That doesn't make the lucky winners and war profiteurs to legal owners for eternity with the license to mistreat German minorities. This "I am Big and Mighty" pose was only possible because the German army was cut to a size half of the size of the army of Switzerland. As consequence paramilitary troops (the Communist "Rote Frontkämpfer"Brigades had 600.000 men; Stahlhelm (nationalist conservative) had 200.000 and also 200.000 had the "Reichsbanner Schwarz Rot Gold" of the independent social democrates USPD fought openly in the streets since 1919. Two Red Armies, supported by the Bolshevist Russian Regime, were in existence (Bayern and Ruhr Red Armies). Under these conditions it was easy for the Polish Army High Command to reply on German demands of border revisions: "The mighty Polish Army will draw the new border through the centre of Berlin". That noise was remarkably muted after it was realised that the Wehrmacht had more than 100.000 lightly armed wildlife rangers.
The mouth became bigger again after the British blanco cheque to Poland.
On August 25, 1939 Hitler told France he bore no enmity toward France, did not want war, but rather good relations with her. ("The Polish provocation, however, has placed the Reich in a position which cannot be allowed to continue. . . . Not only has the Warsaw Government rejected, my proposals, but it has subjected the German minority, our blood brothers, to the worst possible treatment, and has begun mobilization. . . . No nation worthy of the name can put up with such unbearable insults. France would not tolerate it any more than Germany. These things have gone on long enough, and I will reply by force to any further provocations. . . ." French, No. 242, pp.

Latest on this date A.H.'s position was known.

On August 30, 1939 : Lord Halifax warned Poland to abstain from violence and stop inflammatory radio propaganda. ("Atmosphere may be improved if strict instructions are given or confirmed by Polish Government to all their military and civil authorities. . . . Not to fire on fugitives or members of the German minority who cause trouble, but to arrest them; to abstain themselves from personal violence to members of German minority, . . . to allow members of German minority wishing to leave Poland to pass freely; to stop inflammatory radio propaganda." Ibid., No. 85, p. 182.)

Why were the Poles playing as if they had been the peaceful personification of Innocence, brutally ambushed by barbaric Huns? They had willingly provocated the war, perhaps underestimating the Wehrmacht's capacity, but that doesn't make them heroes.

One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.


Thanks
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Hitler started WWII. He was planning a war from the moment he seized power. Maybe not a world war,he never thought that Britain would fight but he badly underestimated us. Hitler made his plans about lebensraum clear in Mein Kampf. His intentions about the Jews were fairly clear too. I'm proud of the part my dad and my uncles played in ridding the world of that maniac. One of my uncles saw Belsen,and I've never forgotten his description of it. He only told me once,after I pressed him. In my experience people who come here 'only asking questions' about the Holocaust or the origins of WWII are closet Nazis and anti Semites,sooner or later they drop the mask. I do this because the world needs constant reminders of the dangers of fascism,what are you doing here ? As for insulting nazis,you cannot insult pond life. I consider it a duty to trash them at every opportunity.

'Rhetoric does not get you anywhere, because Hitler and Mussolini are just as good at rhetoric. But if you can bring these people down with comedy, they stand no chance.'-Mel Brooks

I`m the only Jew who ever made a buck offa`Hitler`!-Mel Brooks
 
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At dawn on 1 September 1939, the German Army entered Poland. In the twentieth century, war in Europe
automatically means world war. So the war in fact quickly laid hold upon both Europe and almost the whole
of the rest of the world.
By a strange confluence of circumstances, it was precisely on that very same day of 1 September that the
Fourth Extraordinary Session of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR passed a law establishing general liability
for military service. Throughout the whole of the Soviet Union's history, there had never been such a law.
While Hitler was frightening children (and grown-ups), and was looked upon as a monster and an ogre, the
Soviet government had in fact got by without any general military-service liability law. Yet as soon as the Non-
Aggression Pact was signed, an act was needed to establish a general obligation to perform military service.
September 1939 was the beginning of the phoney war in the West. In the same month, a no less phoney peace
began in the East.
Why did the Soviet Union need to impose the general obligation to military service? The communists will
answer with one voice that it was needed because the Second World War began that day; they did not want to
take part in it, but were simply taking precautionary measures. Marshal of the Soviet Union, K. A. Meretskov,
was one of the many who asserted that the law was of great significance and was passed 'in the conditions of
World War II which had already begun'. (Na Sluzhbe Narodu, IPL, Moscow, 1968 p. 181)
Let us imagine the Polish-German frontier on that tragic morning - darkness, mist, shooting and the roar of
engines. There were few in Poland who understood what was happening, whether it was a provocation or an
unauthorized clash which had somehow been self-generated. But at the same moment, the deputies of the
Supreme Soviet of the USSR - including shepherds from the mountainous pastures high above the cloud level
and distinguished reindeer breeders from nomad camps in the Arctic - were assembled in Moscow. They
already knew that it was neither provocation, nor a clash, nor a Polish-German war, nor even a European
war, but the beginning of the Second World War; and they immediately met in emergency session to pass the
appropriate laws. Yet how can it be explained why these same deputies did not react with identical swiftness
when a similar thing happened on the Soviet-German frontier in 1941?
On that morning of 1 September, it was not only the Polish government and the governments of western
countries who did not know that a new world war had begun. Hitler himself did not know it. He began the war
against Poland in the hope that it would only be a local action, like the seizure of Czechoslovakia had been.
This is not just Goebbels' propaganda. Soviet sources say the same thing: 'Hitler was convinced,' wrote Air
Colonel-General A. S. Yakovlev, who was a personal adviser of Stalin's at the time, 'that Britain and France
would not go to war over Poland.' (Tsel' Zhizni, IPL, Moscow, 1968, p. 212)
Thus Hitler did not know that he was beginning World War II; the comrades in the Kremlin knew it all too
well. But it is, of course, a long -way to Moscow. Some deputies needed a week, others as much as twelve
days to reach the capital. This means that, in order to discuss the war which had begun in Europe, someone
gave the signal to the deputies to gather in the Kremlin before the war began. Indeed, I believe that someone
gave this signal even before the Molotov—Ribbentrop pact was signed.

Suvorov V. The Icebreaker. Who Started the Second World War. Hamish Hamilton Press, London ; pp. 50-51;1988
 
If you're gonna start on Suvorov, you're going to make an even bigger fool of yourself than you did with the sten guns and the non-existent Daily Mail quotes.
 
garethdjb said:
If you're gonna start on Suvorov, you're going to make an even bigger fool of yourself than you did with the sten guns and the non-existent Daily Mail quotes.
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Hating Jews does odd things to the brain,don't you agree?
 
dafydd said:
Hitler started WWII. He was planning a war from the moment he seized power.
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Moreover, as a chapter in The Wages of Destruction lays out, given the level of economic output of Germany being directed to rearmament in the late 1930s, it had little choice but to go to war or face a potential crash of its economy.
 
Corsair 115 said:
Moreover, as a chapter in The Wages of Destruction lays out, given the level of economic output of Germany being directed to rearmament in the late 1930s, it had little choice but to go to war or face a potential crash of its economy.
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What is it about Hitler that these guys find so loveable? A homoerotic undertone,methinks.
 
dafydd said:
What is it about Hitler that these guys find so loveable? A homoerotic undertone,methinks.
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Nah, he was the 'last chance of the white race', you'll notice that WP have disappeared from the world stage since he shot himself.
 
From a propaganda standpoint the replies were partially:
ad hominem
obfuscation
red herring

in summary: anything but intelligent.

Go and learn the difference between plagiarism and a quotation, then come back and try again spitting large.
 
So MM in your own words what do you find of use in Surovov that is related to what you have said before?
 
MaxMurx said:
From a propaganda standpoint the replies were partially:
ad hominem
obfuscation
red herring

in summary: anything but intelligent.
Go and learn the difference between plagiarism and a quotation, then come back and try again spitting large.
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We are bringing ourselves down to the level of Nazis. We can take a shower later,but with no Zyklon B.
 
Dave Rogers said:
Getting back to the subject of the thread, if anyone's interested, here's my synopsis of the First World War.

Germany, Austria and Italy are stood together in the middle of the bar-room, when Serbia bumps into Austria, and spills Austria's pint.
Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit, because there are splashes on its trouser leg.
Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view.
Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit.
Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for cleaning Austria's trousers.
Russia and Serbia look at Austria.
Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at.
Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.
Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so.
Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene.
Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it?
Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action.
Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium.
Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.
Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium.
France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britan and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria.
Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings, because Britain made Australia do it.
France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change.
Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.
America waits till Germany is about to fall over, then walks over, waves a fist at Germany while Britain knocks it out, then pretends it won the fight all by itself.
By now all the chairs are broken, and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault. While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

Nobody comes out of it looking particularly good.

Dave
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Now an internet meme (unattributed) - http://themetapicture.com/if-world-war-one-was-a-bar-fight/
 
Hmmmmm, funny but they don't do Italy right at the beginning, Italy should be standing with AH & G at the start then slips underneath a table.
 
The Centennial of the start of World War One next year (2014) is bringing, as expected, a flood of books on the origins and start of World War One. Just search Amazon.
Currently reading Christopher Clark's "The Sleepwalkers:How Europe Went To War 1914" and preordered Max Hastings "Catastrophe:1914". Nice balance because Clark's work is straight up Diplomatic history focusing on the causes of the war and Hastings appears to focus on the outbreak and military operations.
And I will probably give Barbara Tuchman's classic "The Guns Of August" another read.
And there are plenty more books on the start of World War One coming down the chute.
Sort of like the flood of new books on the Civil War we are seeing for it's 150th Anniversary. And these floods always vary in quality: Some books very good, other medicore and some outright bad.
 
I didn't read all 128 pages, so this might have been covered, but in the interest of creating an infinity thread: When did WW II officially end? Not when did fighting stop, but when did the formal state of war end?
 
The WWI as a bar fight was cute is there a WWII version set at a family BBQ? (in the sense of a European family)
 
Time to get out my "Diplomacy" set again....God, In college I wasted a lot of time on that game....
 
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