Who started both World Wars?

[uke2se]

Could somebody please our friend here that the Nazis were Germans, he will not accept that from me. And tell him the the Germans in vast majority were loyal to the regime until the very bitter end.

Ah, so it is as was said above. 911 thinks that because all Nazis were German (which isn't true in the first place), all Germans were Nazis. Again he demonstrates his complete lack of understanding of history.

Again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-rescue-service-during-Battle-of-Britain.html

This was not an incidental battlefield 'gentlemanly behavior', this was German policy, where British policy was to firebomb civilians.

Again: gentlemanly behavior was present on both sides. This wasn't too uncommon, and it has been known since the events took place, about 70 years ago.

Of course, 911's denial of history also forces him to deny German policy to firebomb British civilians.

Obviously, the most shameful thing of the entire war were the firebombing of all major German cities as well as the invention of the H-word.

London. Blitz. Read a book.

Really? Last time you willingly brought the Soviets into Europe because you refused to let the 97% German town of Danzig voluntarily return to the Reich.

911 has already been called on this faulty interpretation of history. Why, if Danzig was the target, did the Germans occupy the entirety of Poland (minus the parts THEY invited Soviets into), then keep it and instituting German governors, then attempt to "Germanify" the population?

I think that present day China is of a much higher moral caliber than the USSR, your buddy from WW2.

Not my buddy. I'm a Swede. China was also an Allied power during the war. Another fact of history 911 "forgets" (or possibly never knew).

So I do not think it is such a far fetched idea that you would give Europe this time to China if you had the chance.

It's not far fetched if you're a loon, no. For a rational person it's insane.

After all your hatred for everything German (rooted in an Anglo inferiority complex) is without limits.

Another unsupported assertion based on 911's faulty interpretation of history.

Again uke2se, in real life references of yourself or mum do not count.

Good thing I can draw support from almost the entirety of published history then. Too bad you can't.

 

[Tolls]

WW1 fitted perfectly in that standard British strategy of divide and conquor and rule itself. WW1 was plotted by Britain via it's alliances with France and Russia, which were purely anti-German.

Britain did not have a military alliance with France or Russia. That was why Britain did not declare war until Germany invaded Belgium...a neutral country, until that point, and one with which Britain did have a treaty of defence.

ETA: Considering 9/11's view that the Anglo-French declaration of war on Germany somehow makes them responsible for the second world war, presumably the timeline of declarations of war here is even more clear as to who started it? Especially considering there isn't a single entente declaration until Britains on the 4th of August (unlike, say, the German one vs Poland in 1939).

 

[Corsair 115]

Obviously, the most shameful thing of the entire war were the firebombing of all major German cities...

Still as ignorant as ever on the history of the Combined Bomber Offensive I see...

 

[Corsair 115]

They [Germany] believed that mining, U-boats and a superior land force would overwhelm opposition on land and put enough pressure on the UK to surrender or sue for peace.....they were wrong

Germany forgot that its empire had a roof. And then failed to properly understand what was needed to protect that roof. Of course, given that the head of the Luftwaffe was the supremely incompetent Göring, it shouldn't be all that surprising that Germany failed to take the steps that were really needed to protect its airspace.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Britain did not have a military alliance with France or Russia. That was why Britain did not declare war until Germany invaded Belgium...a neutral country, until that point, and one with which Britain did have a treaty of defence.

OMG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Entente

ETA: Considering 9/11's view that the Anglo-French declaration of war on Germany somehow makes them responsible for the second world war, presumably the timeline of declarations of war here is even more clear as to who started it? Especially considering there isn't a single entente declaration until Britains on the 4th of August (unlike, say, the German one vs Poland in 1939).

Hitler invaded Poland, not the rest of the world. He wanted to reverse Versailles. Period.

Britain declared war on Germany and by definition, through all it's colonies, it became a world war. And it was Britain that tried to involve America from the start. Not that the American and other Jews needed any encouragement. Far from it. Hitler desperately tried to avoid war (with major powers).

 

[9/11-investigator]

Germany forgot that its empire had a roof. And then failed to properly understand what was needed to protect that roof. Of course, given that the head of the Luftwaffe was the supremely incompetent Göring, it shouldn't be all that surprising that Germany failed to take the steps that were really needed to protect its airspace.

Germans are a bit too clever to 'forget' these kind of things.
The truth is that they never plotted for war with either Britain, France of Russia, let alone the US. The war was forced upon them.

David Irving in recent talk about the German airforce:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GovBl3IYxQ

David Irving - Germans built the wrong airforce

144 seconds

Listen to this carefully.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Ah, so it is as was said above. 911 thinks that because all Nazis were German (which isn't true in the first place), all Germans were Nazis. Again he demonstrates his complete lack of understanding of history.

Never said anything like that. The Nazi movement originated in Germany.

Of course, 911's denial of history also forces him to deny German policy to firebomb British civilians.

London. Blitz. Read a book.

There we go again. Read this article for starters:

http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/blitz.html

911 has already been called on this faulty interpretation of history. Why, if Danzig was the target, did the Germans occupy the entirety of Poland (minus the parts THEY invited Soviets into), then keep it and instituting German governors, then attempt to "Germanify" the population?

Few people realize that the Polish army was fully mobilized and were confident, backed as they foolishly believed by lying British and lying Americans, that they were on their way to Berlin and had designs on German territory. The direct cause for the invasion was not Danzig but the persecution of Germans in Poland. Crossing the border near Danzig would have meant total war with Poland anyway.

Not my buddy. I'm a Swede.

Ah yes, I remember, the 'tall blond aryan with potato nose'. But you are defending Allied policies, hence I stick with your 'buddy' idea.

China was also an Allied power during the war. Another fact of history 911 "forgets" (or possibly never knew).

Yawn. So was Morocco. Did you know that?

 

[uke2se]

Never said anything like that.

Never said you did. Someone else did. Try reading for comprehension.

The Nazi movement originated in Germany.

So?

There we go again. Read this article for starters:

Link to neo-Nazi site snipped.

I don't read crap like that, nor is it relevant. We already know that you and your ilk have no knowledge of historical events.

Few people realize that the Polish army was fully mobilized and were confident, backed as they foolishly believed by lying British and lying Americans, that they were on their way to Berlin and had designs on German territory.

False. The Polish Army was mobilized and deployed in defensive posture because Hitler had shown his willingness to invade if he didn't get his way. Nobody told the Polish they would invade Germany. The UK and France promised Poland that they would declare war on Germany if it invaded Poland. Read a book.

The direct cause for the invasion was not Danzig but the persecution of Germans in Poland. Crossing the border near Danzig would have meant total war with Poland anyway.

False. The direct cause was Hitler's stated intention of lebensraum in the east.

Ah yes, I remember, the 'tall blond aryan with potato nose'. But you are defending Allied policies, hence I stick with your 'buddy' idea.

I am defending reality.

Yawn. So was Morocco. Did you know that?

No, it wasn't. Morocco was Vichy French, and thus neutral until it yielded when the US invaded and joined the allied cause. That's largely irrelevant, though, as the point was that you attempted to claim China as not being part of the Allies. You failed. Again.

 

[9/11-investigator]

False. The Polish Army was mobilized and deployed in defensive posture

I am glad you agree the Polish army was mobilized.

because Hitler had shown his willingness to invade if he didn't get his way.

That's because Danzig was on post-Versailles Polish territory.

Nobody told the Polish they would invade Germany. The UK and France promised Poland that they would declare war on Germany if it invaded Poland.

The Polish had their own dreams about restoring Greater Poland. Read a book.

False. The direct cause was Hitler's stated intention of lebensraum in the east.

That was crap from the twenties. Hitler's intentions follow from the Hossbach Protokol, 1937.

BTW, here are detailed descriptions of the negotiations going on before the invasion. Nobody with half a brain will claim that 'Lebensraum' was an issue in August 1939. It was about Danzig, Korridor and persecution of Germans in Poland and nothing else.

as the point was that you attempted to claim China as not being part of the Allies. You failed. Again.

Liar. I never said anything about China in relation to alliances with who ever.

 

[Rich_C]

OMG.

Wiki post

And Italy was allied with Germany and Austria-Hungary and didn't declare war.
Great Britain was going to stay out of the war until Germany invaded a neutral Belgium. An unfortunate fact for you.

Far from it. Hitler desperately tried to avoid war (with major powers).

Of course. The bully never tries to pick on those bigger than him. Hitler wanted to pick apart Europe one country at a time while everyone else did nothing.

 

[9/11-investigator]

And Italy was allied with Germany and Austria-Hungary and didn't declare war.
Great Britain was going to stay out of the war until Germany invaded a neutral Belgium. An unfortunate fact for you.

Quote from Buchanan's book:

p.37 - By that evening [August 1], Germany had declared war on Russia, which had refused to halt it's mobilization, and on France, which had refused to declare neutrality.

To translate this in present day terms:

A lady (Germany) with her shopping bags is in the parking garage opening her car, when 2 sinister looking guys (Russia, France) approach her in a straight line (mobilization) while saying nothing (no declaration of war) although their intentions are clear. Before the guys can grab her wrists (2 front war) the lady decides to strike first, grab for her pepperspray and use it (pre-emptive strike, Schlieffen plan). Technically the lady started the agression but from the intention it is clear that the guys wanted to attack and that the pre-emptive attack was justified. And for Germany it was a surprise that Britain had signed a secret agreement with France about sending troops. That caused the stalemate on the battle field.

 

[uke2se]

I am glad you agree the Polish army was mobilized.

So was the Czech army. It didn't mean the Czechs were about to invade Germany with Britain and France.

That's because Danzig was on post-Versailles Polish territory.

And the rest of Poland? Was that also German before Versailles? What about Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia or Greece? All German before Versailles?

The Polish had their own dreams about restoring Greater Poland. Read a book.

So? They didn't attempt to make their dreams a reality. Hitler did.

That was crap from the twenties. Hitler's intentions follow from the Hossbach Protokol, 1937.

Why do you trust Hitler sometimes and not at other times? What about the speeches in the 30s and 40s were Hitler and Goebbles spoke of lebensraum in the east? Crap from the twenties?

BTW, here are detailed descriptions of the negotiations going on before the invasion. Nobody with half a brain will claim that 'Lebensraum' was an issue in August 1939. It was about Danzig, Korridor and persecution of Germans in Poland and nothing else.

Then why did the Germans invade and keep the rest of Poland except for the parts THEY invited the Soviets into?

Liar. I never said anything about China in relation to alliances with who ever.

"I think that present day China is of a much higher moral caliber than the USSR, your buddy from WW2."

This implies that China weren't "our" buddies from WW2, which in fact they were. Having trouble keeping track of your own BS?

 

[9/11-investigator]

And the rest of Poland? Was that also German before Versailles? What about Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia or Greece? All German before Versailles?

Conveniently forgetting that France and Britain had declared war on Germany and started a real war by invading Norway, prompting Hitler to respond to prevent the Alllies to cut off vital supply lines or iron ore in Sweden.

So? They didn't attempt to make their dreams a reality. Hitler did.

I told you that they were dreaming of going to Berlin, but foolishly underestimated German strength and wrongly misinterpreted the intentions of the Alllies, who saw Poland merely as a bag of dirt, only useful to bring about war with Germany.

Why do you trust Hitler sometimes and not at other times? What about the speeches in the 30s and 40s were Hitler and Goebbles spoke of lebensraum in the east? Crap from the twenties?

Excellent! Please provide precise links to these speeches where Hitler talks about Lebensraum. Thanks in advance. Here are all Hitler's speeches:

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

Then why did the Germans invade and keep the rest of Poland except for the parts THEY invited the Soviets into?

They invaded to defeat the Polish army. Obviously post-Versailles Poland was history for the time being. Interesting is of course why the Alllies did not declare war on the USSR, making it painfully clear that they did not give a h*** about Poland.

"I think that present day China is of a much higher moral caliber than the USSR, your buddy from WW2." This implies that China weren't "our" buddies from WW2, which in fact they were. Having trouble keeping track of your own BS?

I really think that you should follow a basic predicate logic course since your reasoning skills are fatally flawed. If I have a cat and a dog and the cat is white, then it does NOT follow that the dog therefore is not white.

This is very basic. But you probably should have stayed with deer hunting to start with.

 

[uke2se]

Conveniently forgetting that France and Britain had declared war on Germany

After Germany invaded Poland.

and started a real war by invading Norway,

Invasion pre-empted by German invasion.

prompting Hitler to respond to prevent the Alllies to cut off vital supply lines or iron ore in Sweden.

Lie. Time line disagrees with your assertion.

I told you that they were dreaming of going to Berlin, but foolishly underestimated German strength and wrongly misinterpreted the intentions of the Alllies, who saw Poland merely as a bag of dirt, only useful to bring about war with Germany.

First, prove that the Poles "dreamed of going to Berlin".

Second, the Poles desperately needed and sought Allied help when the Germa wehrmacht rolled across the entire Polish frontier (as opposed to just Danzig or the corridor). The British and French sought to limit the war, hoping to lure the Germans into a trench-war like WWI, so they did not advance, despite generals from both nation urging the governments to order such an advance. As you say, they underestimated the Germans. However, none of this evidences your implication that the German war on Poland was defensive or limited in nature, given the undisputed facts of history. Poland was occupied as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty, the Germans occupying and "Germanofying" western Poland, inviting the Soviets to do as they pleased with the east. What was it you said about the Allies inviting the Soviets into Europe?

Excellent! Please provide precise links to these speeches where Hitler talks about Lebensraum. Thanks in advance. Here are all Hitler's speeches:

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

ETA: Those aren't all of Hitler's speeches. From your link: "The following are excerpts from some of the most memorable speeches that he gave." It's good to read what you're linking to so you don't make a fool of yourself time and time again.

First, we have Generalplan Ost which outlines German settlement and indigenous re-settlement in the east.

Then, we have The East as Fulfillment by Joseph Goebbels:

THE EAST AS FULFILLMENT
By Joseph Goebbels

For us the East is no longer a rubbish dump for officials and officers of the Reich who have failed, no place to punitively transfer shortsighted public authorities, who proceed according to the principle that that which has proven useless within our fatherland, is still good enough for the East, if not actually even too good.

The East is our national radiation. Here of all places the circulation of our racial blood must be directly stimulated and accelerated again and again. Here we must harness to the fatherland's disposal, the brightest minds and strongest hearts. They are here for the purpose, and it is their national political mission to see to it, that the Reich's pulse beat, become perceptible and audible to its utmost cells. The program of National Socialism for the German East will have to be implemented by countless human beings and organizations. In the meantime, years and decades will pass; but one day it will be as we often dreamed, as we sang of it in our songs and as our poets portrayed it to us:
yellow ears will wave here on vast fields, bread for our people growing on our own soil. A hardy people of peasant stock will keep guard in the East. Sword and plough stand ready to shape and preserve the peace. A rich and inexhaustible German cultural life will be able to unfold here. In all people and on all fields the Reich will be at home here.

Every young German will have to consider it a matter of honor to consecrate at least a couple of years of his life to the East. Countless numbers will remain, strengthening the rampart of bodies that shields our fatherland. For the East is not only the yearning, but also the fulfillment of our nation.

Then we have Drang Nach Osten which was a central concept in German expansion plans even before Hitler.

Do you want more evidence for Hitler's and his Nazi regime's policy for Lebensraum?

They invaded to defeat the Polish army. Obviously post-Versailles Poland was history for the time being. Interesting is of course why the Alllies did not declare war on the USSR, making it painfully clear that they did not give a h*** about Poland.

If they invaded to defeat the Polish army, why did they not leave when that was done? Why did the Nazis invite the Soviets into Europe? Why don't you hate the Nazis for that?

I really think that you should follow a basic predicate logic course since your reasoning skills are fatally flawed. If I have a cat and a dog and the cat is white, then it does NOT follow that the dog therefore is not white.

This is very basic. But you probably should have stayed with deer hunting to start with.

Ok, so you were not implying that China wasn't "our" buddies in WW2? Then why did you make that comment? Please answer rationally, rather than with insults.

 

[Rich_C]

Quote from Buchanan's book:


To translate this in present day terms:

A lady (Germany) with her shopping bags is in the parking garage opening her car, when 2 sinister looking guys (Russia, France) approach her in a straight line (mobilization) while saying nothing (no declaration of war) although their intentions are clear. Before the guys can grab her wrists (2 front war) the lady decides to strike first, grab for her pepperspray and use it (pre-emptive strike, Schlieffen plan). Technically the lady started the agression but from the intention it is clear that the guys wanted to attack and that the pre-emptive attack was justified. And for Germany it was a surprise that Britain had signed a secret agreement with France about sending troops. That caused the stalemate on the battle field.

What does any of that have to do with Germany invading Belgium and UK declaring war on Germany because of that? You're just trying to change the subject.

 

[dafydd]

What does any of that have to do with Germany invading Belgium and UK declaring war on Germany because of that? You're just trying to change the subject.

You will only make him change the subject again by asking a question.That is his only debating tactic.Understandable,given that he knows nothing about the history of the World Wars.

 

[Corsair 115]

Germans are a bit too clever to 'forget' these kind of things. The truth is that they never plotted for war with either Britain, France of Russia, let alone the US. The war was forced upon them.

It doesn't matter if they were 'forced' into fighting the war or not. The fact is Germany fought the aerial war incompentently. Most of the blame for that lies entirely at the feet of Hitler and Göring. Neither of them understood the proper application of air power in the strategic context.

Had someone like Galland in command of the Luftwaffe instead of the useless Göring, the Allies would have had a much harding time winning control of the skies over Europe. The Allies still would have won such control in the end, but it would have been a much bloodier and costlier battle. Galland understood fighter operations; Hitler and Göring did not.

 

[Hans]

Just another historical point. Poland wasn't fully mobilized when the Germans attacked that is why 9/11 got all excited when one of our sane members of the forum mispoke. He is well aware that the Polish weren't mobilize and that is why he was so happy to see someone agree with him.

In March 1939, Hitler began to make demands on Poland for the return of territory in the Polish Corridor, cessation of Polish rights in Danzig, and annexation of the Free City to Germany. These Poland categorically rejected. As negotiations continued, both sides prepared for war.

German demands sent to Poland on 25 Aug 1939 were the following.

The return of Danzig to Germany

Rail and road access across the corridor between Germany and East Prussia

The cession to Germany any Polish territory formerly of pre-WW1 Germany that hosted 75% or more ethnic Germans

An international board to discuss the cession of the Polish Corridor to Germany

Polands modernization

To motorize a single division to German standards would have required use of all the civilian cars and trucks in the country. This occurred despite heroic efforts by Polish society to create a modern military which included fundraising among civilians and the Polish communities in the USA to buy modern equipment. As a percentage of GNP, Polish defense spending in the 1930s was second in Europe, behind the Soviet Union but ahead of Germany. Yet, in real dollar terms, the budget of the Luftwaffe alone in 1939 was ten times greater than the entire Polish defense budget. Yet even this did not give the full picture, since the Polish defense budget included money to upgrade roads and bridges and to build arms factories.

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=28

On paper, Poland’s full mobilized army would have numbered about 2.5 million. Due to allied pressure and mismanagement, however, only about 600,000 Polish troops were in place to meet the German invasion on September 1, 1939. These forces were organized into 7 armies and 5 independent operational groups. The typical Polish infantry division was roughly equal in numbers to its German counterpart, but weaker in terms of anti-tank guns, artillery support, and transport. Poland had 30 active and 7 reserve divisions. In addition there were 12 cavalry brigades and one mechanized cavalry brigade. These forces were supplemented by units of the Border Defense Corps (KOP), an elite force designed to secure the frontiers from infiltration and engage in small unit actions, diversion, sabotage, and intelligence gathering. There was also a National Guard used for local defense and equipped with older model weapons. Armored train groups and river flotillas operated under army command.

German forces were organized in two Army Groups, with a total of 5 armies with 60 Divisions. The Germans fielded about 1.8 million troops. The Germans had 2600 tanks against the Polish 180, and over 2,000 aircraft against the Polish 420. German forces were supplemented by a Slovak brigade.

Poland was of little threat to Germany except as a second front if she were to attack France

 

[Tolls]

OMG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Entente

Which was not a military alliance. The Ententes between Britain and Russia, and Britain and France, covered their colonies (Egypt and Morocco in the case of France, the Middle East in the case of Russia). Only France and Russia had a military alliance. This is why Britain did not declare war on Germany until Belgium was attacked on the 4th. It is also why Germany did not declare war on Britain, because Germany knew that there was no alliance between Britain and France/Russia and hoped Britain would not react.

So...you clearly do not know what the Triple Entente was.

Hitler invaded Poland, not the rest of the world. He wanted to reverse Versailles. Period.

Britain declared war on Germany and by definition, through all it's colonies, it became a world war. And it was Britain that tried to involve America from the start. Not that the American and other Jews needed any encouragement. Far from it. Hitler desperately tried to avoid war (with major powers).

So Germany's declarations of war in 1914 imply Germany started the First World War. Good to see you admit that.

Now, since you later on point out something involving old ladies...Germany declaring war in 1914 did not mean Germany started WW1 then...Germany threatening an old lady (Poland) in a car park resulted in her sons (Britain and France) understandably defending her. So good to see you later admit Germany started the second world war.

 

[9/11-investigator]

ETA: Those aren't all of Hitler's speeches. From your link: "The following are excerpts from some of the most memorable speeches that he gave." It's good to read what you're linking to so you don't make a fool of yourself time and time again.

First, we have Generalplan Ost which outlines German settlement and indigenous re-settlement in the east.

Then, we have The East as Fulfillment by Joseph Goebbels:

Then we have Drang Nach Osten which was a central concept in German expansion plans even before Hitler.

Do you want more evidence for Hitler's and his Nazi regime's policy for Lebensraum?

Moving the goalposts? We are promissed Lebensraum quotes from Hitler from the 30s and 40s and we are presented with quotes from Goebbels. Hitler was in charge, not Goebbels, so where are his Lebensraum quotes? Trouble delivering?

And while your at it, since you are so concerned with territorial integrity, if we compare...

- Germany taking the German town of Danzig back
- Britain invading all sorts of territory around the globe (25% of the planet in 1940)
- the US currently having military bases in more than 100 countries and spending as much on 'defence' as the rest of the world combined

...where is the perceived moral superiority of Anglosphere, if I may ask?

(BTW Britain will be a sad Islamic outpost by 2030 at the latest and the US will be fragmented by 2020)