Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Ah ... now I can validly re-introduce Adolph Hitler and OBL. Please ... do carry on.

<snip>

The first time this dude Godwyned the thread I thought to myself that it was sort of unusual for a thread about morals and pornography. I'm sure it's happened before, but I don't recall running across it. Since no one else thought it worth a mention neither did I.

Now he's done it again, and moreover has apparently been waiting for the opportunity. I'm pretty sure that is well beyond normal for the topic at hand.

So my question is ... are the rest of you just remarkably patient, or are you all just feeding the troll?

He's obviously working from a premise of the 'certain truth' that porn is somehow intrinsically 'bad' and 'wrong', and struggling to defend that position without sounding like a judgmental bigot.

Without success, in my opinion.

I don't think that the prospects of changing that foundation are promising.

It's okay. Throwing raw meat at trolls is an honorable and popular pastime. I just rarely see it done for so long, by so many people at the same time, with such subtlety.

Carry on.

 

[sugarb]

The first time this dude Godwyned the thread I thought to myself that it was sort of unusual for a thread about morals and pornography. I'm sure it's happened before, but I don't recall running across it. Since no one else thought it worth a mention neither did I.

Now he's done it again, and moreover has apparently been waiting for the opportunity. I'm pretty sure that is well beyond normal for the topic at hand.

So my question is ... are the rest of you just remarkably patient, or are you all just feeding the troll?

He's obviously working from a premise of the 'certain truth' that porn is somehow intrinsically 'bad' and 'wrong', and struggling to defend that position without sounding like a judgmental bigot.

Without success, in my opinion.

I don't think that the prospects of changing that foundation are promising.

It's okay. Throwing raw meat at trolls is an honorable and popular pastime. I just rarely see it done for so long, by so many people at the same time, with such subtlety.

Carry on.

Hello, quadraginta! Perhaps there is trolling going on, I'm not sure. Because the problem doesn't seem to be pornography in its entirety, only certain kinds. At least that is what I'm understanding. And it also seems to be focused on the women in porn.

There was a point, I think, a few pages back perhaps? When Ted Bundy was brought up. Serial killer. I found that fascinating, because so many serial killers had "mommy" issues (and some of those rightfully so given the odd relationships they had with their mothers--sadly, I have to say that one of the mothers of one of those serial killers is someone I've known all of my life, someone that my mother knew well and worked with, and there were definitely some...strange dynamics there). Mommy issues seem to usually turn into issues with females in general, or particular *kinds* of females and I think at the moment I am curious if that plays a factor in this.

I am getting a bit frustrated though, so your post was timely. We may have reached the point of feeding. I don't know. (But yeah, I've been accused of being "too" patient, lol. It is one of my self-destructive behaviors, I admit)

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

So my question is ... are the rest of you just remarkably patient, or are you all just feeding the troll?

I'm remarkably patient (Or then again, maybe both)

 

[JFrankA]

"Quite a few of them". And the rest - why don't you respect them?

I haven't met all of them. However, as I have described how I find my models, I treat all of them, and all people with proper respect. As I get to know people (doesn't matter what they do for a living) my respect goes up or down.

I don't know why I am being questioned about this. It is you who has stated right out that you don't respect any female porn stars even though you watch and enjoy what they do.

Irrelevant - and this highlights your shallowness. If you'd digested what I've been writing you'd realize that a porn actress could be as sweet as molasses but that wouldn't alter my disrespect for her.

And you claim that you give all people a "higher rating" in your scale than I do? Even if a female porn actress is a genuinly nice, open-minded, understanding, generous, good to her children, gives money to charity, etc, etc, that person would still not deserve any respect from you because she has sex on camera.

Yet, you enjoy what she does and get aroused by it.

Again, you never ever answer this question: do you see the hypnocrisy in your attitude?

Clearly, you're easily won over by superficiality. You never had the opportunity to meet Idi Amin in person by any chance, did you? By all accounts he was charming!

There's a difference between charming and being a good person. Seems to me you make the instant decision of "females who have sex on camera deserve no respect" period. They lose.

....even though you are aroused by them.....

No need - you've understood my scale perfectly - and you've confirmed that you hold a stranger only in moderate respect until you get to know them. Why is that JFrankA? Why is your default position not to hold them in high respect (I'm not suggesting 10, as that will only be ascribed to a minority of the people you know in any event), but why do you default to holding a significant degree of (dis)respect for people you simply don't know? Now who's unwittingly showing himself to be the dogmatist?

It seems to me that my "5" is your "9"....

[/quote]
To "fail"! "Earn disapproval"! For goodness sake JFrankA get down off your high horse will you and quit pretending you're St Paul.[/quote]

I don't get telling me I'm on a "high horse" when it is your "high horse" I'm commenting on. Also, you've just berated me for setting everyone on 5. You are the one who gives everyone a 10, but when everyone is at a 10, there's no where to go but down. Also, you are the one who looks down on an entire gender of people based upon their occupation, an occupation you love watching them do, I may add. With no chance of them earning any respect from you.

Further, this whole scale thing is irrelevant. As I said, what I consider a 5 seems to be a 9 to you.

I don't see the harm a female porn actress does, especially since male porn actors are causing the female to perform.

Okay, let me explain that.

A female porno actress is in a porno movie where she is involved in a rape fantasy in which she is the victim. Along with her in the same movie is a male porno actor also involved in the rape fantasy in the same scene but as the rapist.

In that scene, I do not see the female porno actress causing harm, in fact, even the role she is portraying isn't causing harm either, because she is the victim. Yet, you would, I assume, actively disrespect the actress even though you are turned on by the scene.

Now I feel that the same way about the male porno actor too, however, the role he plays is doing "fantasy harm" so to speak. Yet you feel nothing (not even disrespect) to the actor.

Why?

When did I specifically state that I "respect" porn actors? And when did "playing the rapist" come into this?

Three times I've giving you this rape example, twice you've ignored it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm afraid I you have to take your own advice and read the previous posts I've posted that gives my question.

As to when you said you respect porn actors, you specifically called them "lucky bastards" and you've also said that you didn't disrespect them. Your disrespect has been consistantly with female porn stars. Never once have you said anything negative about male porn stars. Indeed, you have stated that you don't know how you feel about them. So it's certainly not disrespect.

Wha ? HE is being superficial ? He's the one who argues from actually knowing people and you think you can judge the same people based on less complete knowledge ???

Absolutely, because our respective criteria for judging people are clearly different. JFranK's are based on the width of their smile;

An incorrect assuption (once again) and/or a blantant misrepresentation of my position.

In fact, I call your determination of that all female porn stars deserve your disrespect period as superficial. Especially since you enjoy what they do.

mine are based on their behaviour. Get it now?!

No I don't get it. You disrepect a female porn actress' behavior, and it seems like you are saying that there is no way any female who is in a porno will ever get your respect. Further, you enjoy that same female's performace so much, that (I'm assuming) you get aroused by her and/or her performance. Again, I ask you, do you see your own hypocrisy? I believe that you don't.

 

[sugarb]

I haven't met all of them. However, as I have described how I find my models, I treat all of them, and all people with proper respect. As I get to know people (doesn't matter what they do for a living) my respect goes up or down.

I don't know why I am being questioned about this. It is you who has stated right out that you don't respect any female porn stars even though you watch and enjoy what they do.



And you claim that you give all people a "higher rating" in your scale than I do? Even if a female porn actress is a genuinly nice, open-minded, understanding, generous, good to her children, gives money to charity, etc, etc, that person would still not deserve any respect from you because she has sex on camera.

Yet, you enjoy what she does and get aroused by it.

Again, you never ever answer this question: do you see the hypnocrisy in your attitude?



There's a difference between charming and being a good person. Seems to me you make the instant decision of "females who have sex on camera deserve no respect" period. They lose.

....even though you are aroused by them.....



It seems to me that my "5" is your "9"....

To "fail"! "Earn disapproval"! For goodness sake JFrankA get down off your high horse will you and quit pretending you're St Paul.[/quote]

I don't get telling me I'm on a "high horse" when it is your "high horse" I'm commenting on. Also, you've just berated me for setting everyone on 5. You are the one who gives everyone a 10, but when everyone is at a 10, there's no where to go but down. Also, you are the one who looks down on an entire gender of people based upon their occupation, an occupation you love watching them do, I may add. With no chance of them earning any respect from you.

Further, this whole scale thing is irrelevant. As I said, what I consider a 5 seems to be a 9 to you.




Okay, let me explain that.

A female porno actress is in a porno movie where she is involved in a rape fantasy in which she is the victim. Along with her in the same movie is a male porno actor also involved in the rape fantasy in the same scene but as the rapist.

In that scene, I do not see the female porno actress causing harm, in fact, even the role she is portraying isn't causing harm either, because she is the victim. Yet, you would, I assume, actively disrespect the actress even though you are turned on by the scene.

Now I feel that the same way about the male porno actor too, however, the role he plays is doing "fantasy harm" so to speak. Yet you feel nothing (not even disrespect) to the actor.

Why?




Three times I've giving you this rape example, twice you've ignored it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm afraid I you have to take your own advice and read the previous posts I've posted that gives my question.

As to when you said you respect porn actors, you specifically called them "lucky bastards" and you've also said that you didn't disrespect them. Your disrespect has been consistantly with female porn stars. Never once have you said anything negative about male porn stars. Indeed, you have stated that you don't know how you feel about them. So it's certainly not disrespect.





An incorrect assuption (once again) and/or a blantant misrepresentation of my position.

In fact, I call your determination of that all female porn stars deserve your disrespect period as superficial. Especially since you enjoy what they do.



No I don't get it. You disrepect a female porn actress' behavior, and it seems like you are saying that there is no way any female who is in a porno will ever get your respect. Further, you enjoy that same female's performace so much, that (I'm assuming) you get aroused by her and/or her performance. Again, I ask you, do you see your own hypocrisy? I believe that you don't.[/QUOTE]


Okay, wait. JFrankA, thanks for this post. I am going to have to go back to the beginning and read again, I think. If what you're saying is true...that Southwind17 "enjoys" the very people seemed to be otherwise worth only...oh, I don't know, being spit on, then...this is nothing but woman hating. I think I got lost somewhere along the way. Because if that's right, then this is kind of spooky stuff. If what you said is true, then it is Southwind objectifying women, not women objectifying themselves. I've got to go back to the beginning. Thanks for your post.

 

[fuelair]

Exactly. I'd like to have a serious discussion and debate about this too. Unfortunately, Southwind17, it seems to me that you are more interested in sounding like a tabloid interviewer rather than a serious debater.

Or some kind of 'bater anyway.

 

[fuelair]

Sum of a whole?

Is holesum!!

 

[fuelair]

To "fail"! "Earn disapproval"! For goodness sake JFrankA get down off your high horse will you and quit pretending you're St Paul.

I don't get telling me I'm on a "high horse" when it is your "high horse" I'm commenting on. Also, you've just berated me for setting everyone on 5. You are the one who gives everyone a 10, but when everyone is at a 10, there's no where to go but down. Also, you are the one who looks down on an entire gender of people based upon their occupation, an occupation you love watching them do, I may add. With no chance of them earning any respect from you.

Further, this whole scale thing is irrelevant. As I said, what I consider a 5 seems to be a 9 to you.




Okay, let me explain that.

A female porno actress is in a porno movie where she is involved in a rape fantasy in which she is the victim. Along with her in the same movie is a male porno actor also involved in the rape fantasy in the same scene but as the rapist.

In that scene, I do not see the female porno actress causing harm, in fact, even the role she is portraying isn't causing harm either, because she is the victim. Yet, you would, I assume, actively disrespect the actress even though you are turned on by the scene.

Now I feel that the same way about the male porno actor too, however, the role he plays is doing "fantasy harm" so to speak. Yet you feel nothing (not even disrespect) to the actor.

Why?




Three times I've giving you this rape example, twice you've ignored it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm afraid I you have to take your own advice and read the previous posts I've posted that gives my question.

As to when you said you respect porn actors, you specifically called them "lucky bastards" and you've also said that you didn't disrespect them. Your disrespect has been consistantly with female porn stars. Never once have you said anything negative about male porn stars. Indeed, you have stated that you don't know how you feel about them. So it's certainly not disrespect.





An incorrect assuption (once again) and/or a blantant misrepresentation of my position.

In fact, I call your determination of that all female porn stars deserve your disrespect period as superficial. Especially since you enjoy what they do.



No I don't get it. You disrepect a female porn actress' behavior, and it seems like you are saying that there is no way any female who is in a porno will ever get your respect. Further, you enjoy that same female's performace so much, that (I'm assuming) you get aroused by her and/or her performance. Again, I ask you, do you see your own hypocrisy? I believe that you don't.[/QUOTE]


Okay, wait. JFrankA, thanks for this post. I am going to have to go back to the beginning and read again, I think. If what you're saying is true...that Southwind17 "enjoys" the very people seemed to be otherwise worth only...oh, I don't know, being spit on, then...this is nothing but woman hating. I think I got lost somewhere along the way. Because if that's right, then this is kind of spooky stuff. If what you said is true, then it is Southwind objectifying women, not women objectifying themselves. I've got to go back to the beginning. Thanks for your post.[/QUOTE]



Just a casual note here just from me and just to be clear, just about me: I have NO disrespect for anyone working in the porn/sex industries for working in those industries. I have the same disrespect for some members (potentially) that I would have for members of any other profession who did things I consider unethical or harmful to others but that would be it. Others are free to disagree

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I hope there's an issue with quote tags afoot here.

Otherwise my reading skills have taken a sudden and disturbing turn for the worse.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I agree. I'm am past being confused, and now wondering if I entered the Twilight Zone.

 

[sugarb]

I agree. I'm am past being confused, and now wondering if I entered the Twilight Zone.

It might be my fault? I noticed all of JFrankA's post that I quoted didn't end up in a quote box. But I swear! I did it just like I always do!

ETA: I didn't tell anyone to get off their high horse, lol. Something messed up with the quote boxes. I'm sorry if I did something wrong.

 

[JFrankA]

It might be my fault? I noticed all of JFrankA's post that I quoted didn't end up in a quote box. But I swear! I did it just like I always do!

ETA: I didn't tell anyone to get off their high horse, lol. Something messed up with the quote boxes. I'm sorry if I did something wrong.

I saw that the quote box messed up. I know you weren't saying anything about a high horse.

 

[quadraginta]

It might be my fault? I noticed all of JFrankA's post that I quoted didn't end up in a quote box. But I swear! I did it just like I always do!

ETA: I didn't tell anyone to get off their high horse, lol. Something messed up with the quote boxes. I'm sorry if I did something wrong.

I saw that the quote box messed up. I know you weren't saying anything about a high horse.

No worries, sugarb. I knew what had happened with your quote. It can happen to any of us. One character too far with a highlight and it all goes to pieces. (I use 'preview' a lot, and still screw up.)

It was fuelair's post that had me flummoxed.

 

[fuelair]

I hope there's an issue with quote tags afoot here.

Otherwise my reading skills have taken a sudden and disturbing turn for the worse.

There apparently is but I have no idea how or why. I quoted a post to make a point but part of the quote apparently vanishes (at the top apparently). I apologize, but have no idea what happened to the initial part.

The only part that is me writing is the para at the bottom (after [/quote ] ).

The post I quoted is from sugarb. ETA: Post 585

 

[JFrankA]

Okay, wait. JFrankA, thanks for this post. I am going to have to go back to the beginning and read again, I think. If what you're saying is true...that Southwind17 "enjoys" the very people seemed to be otherwise worth only...oh, I don't know, being spit on, then...this is nothing but woman hating. I think I got lost somewhere along the way. Because if that's right, then this is kind of spooky stuff. If what you said is true, then it is Southwind objectifying women, not women objectifying themselves. I've got to go back to the beginning. Thanks for your post.

No need to go back. For you, here's the point where he says he loves porn.

Post #253

I'd like to interject that there are quite a lot of girls who write and draw porn for no compensation, as a hobby. I'm curious if Southwind is interested in discussing whether there's something wrong with this as well. So far this conversation doesn't seem any deeper than 'sex for pay, that's obvs gross, like eating poop' vs 'I don't think everyone thinks sex for pay is gross like eating poop.'

Isn't it funny how easily some people bark up the wrong tree?! For the record - I LOVE porn - can't get enough of it, and I don't mean the marshmallow variety that many people here will only entertain. So, there you have it. Re-read the entire thread if you need to satisfy yourself that that's not a contradiction. I guarantee you'll not find one. Indeed, just re-read the OP question. Would an anti-porn proponent really pose such a question in that way?!

and here's post#375

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with porn per se, from which you will deduce that I'm not entirely comfortable with it either, by which I mean I don't have great respect for porn actresses. Generally, I do think they're being used and depraved, unwittingly, regardless of consent, to the detriment of women generally. As for porn actors and crew, well, I suppose I should be scathing, but, oddly, I don't feel that way. I suppose it's analogous to buying some sneakers that you know have probably been made in a sweat shop - a fact which you're prepared to ignore in the interests of slipping them and feeling good. You could call it hypocritical, I suppose. Maybe male chauvinism. Maybe just brute masculinity. Who knows? (that's rhetorical, BTW!)

and post #436

Apology accepted. Now let's start again. And please forgive me if I seem harsh, I'm just honest.

I find it interesting that you don't have respect for porn actresses, but feel that the crew is okay. By using your analogy with sweatshop sneakers, it's like not having respect for the children who work at sweatshop, but the people who run the sweatshop you don't feel anything towards.

Forgive me if I sound accusing, but it sounds to me like you see women the victims of porn and yet you blame the victim for being in it in the first place.

Much of the porn that I'm accustomed to seeing (youporn.com, which I admit is varied), involves one or a number of men performing very explicit sexual acts on women "on the man's/men's terms", by which I mean it seems deliberately staged to give the impression of dominance and submission by man(en) and woman respectively. This commonly extends to the appearance of the woman being abused (I don't mean physically, as in violently, but more doing things that are intended to surprise if not shock the viewer), even though, in many cases, the woman gives the impression of enjoyment, or is indeed enjoying it. Interestingly, it seems that the more "extreme" uploads (which usually correspond with acts that I would say lean more towards depravity than the other way) show both the highest number of viewings and ratings by viewers.

This accounts for my not having much respect for porn actresses - the seeming fact that many seem prepared to be portrayed as something almost inhuman; there for the mere use and abuse by a bunch of guys looking to humiliate, but that, evidently, most viewers (certainly at youporn) prefer to see!

From what you've written above I guess this type of porn is different from that in which you're involved,

My note: This is a complete assumption. The porn I produce is male Dominate/female submissive involved in a very extreme fetish. Anyway, to continue

and logically that could well account fo our somewhat polar views.

I'll try to explain my more lenient feeling towards the male "actors" and crew later when I have time (both to analyse and report!). Got to dash right now.

(you'll excuse me for snipping your post so callously - I just wanted to keep my post size down. )

and post #457

Let me change your perspective a little, if I may. How would you feel if a man is being degraded and humiliated by one or many different women? Would your feeling be the same for a man in that position as a woman?

Honestly JFA I don't see it working like this. I hope this doesn't come across as sounding male chauvenistic, but anything that portrays females as dominant over males (it doesn't have to be porn - it can be anything involving physicality)(Power Puff Girls?!) just doesn't cut it with me. I suppose that's because, in reality, it's essentially non-existent (well, at least in the public domain), and my ability to suspend disbelief to the extent that I can appreciate and enjoy a fictitious scenario seems to be very limited!

So I reckon there could be a more dominating gene in the male species that releases some sort of hormone or something at the thought of "taking advantage" of a woman (could this partly account for rape?). That's not to say many men don't get off on the idea of being sexually dominated, but on the rare occasion that I stumble upon such a video I certainly can't fix that in my mind as male abuse in the way I can the other way around. I haven't seen enough such videos to comment reliably, but I suspect that there are very few indeed where the male is portrayed (convincingly) as really not wanting to be in that situation, whereas most of those where the woman is dominated are, and indeed may well be, in many.

So here's the contentious part (and I'll choose my words even more carefully than usual!) - if you were to run a reliable poll I suspect you'd find that more people, generally, would express more disrespect for such porn actresses than actors and consider what they do is more demeaning to women than what porn actors do is to men (especially men, most of whom would probably crack open a beer and shout "Go buddy"! Can you really see women, generally, doing the same (with a chardonnay, say )?)

Finally, here's where I got the "lucky bastard" quote, post #141

I've seen the boyfriends (and girlfriends) of a number of porn actresses. Good looks on their part rarely enters into the equation.

Makes sense. Would you seriously hook up with a girl who's getting reamed regularly by dozens of desparados (by which I mean darned lucky bastards!)?

ETA: I assume you're a handsome stallion!

 

[sugarb]

There apparently is but I have no idea how or why. I quoted a post to make a point but part of the quote apparently vanishes (at the top apparently). I apologize, but have no idea what happened to the initial part.

The only part that is me writing is the para at the bottom (after [/quote ] ).

The post I quoted is from sugarb. ETA: Post 585

Hi fuelair. Yup, my fault, sorry about that. I think I messed up the quote boxes on that post. Sorry all, thanks for not getting upset.

 

[sugarb]

JFrankA, you're a jewel, thank you.

So...basically what's happening here is that Southwind enjoys these women, but does kind of loathe them.

You know, there isn't much in this world that freaks me out, really...but...I just find that a little bit creepy. If you truly loathe something, how can you get turned on by it? Why would you even...watch it? Interestingly enough, though, that's just perhaps his fetish. Though that's one of the fetishes I find disturbing. Truly objectifying women, with no respect for their person.

I really *hope* that isn't what this is.

 

[JFrankA]

JFrankA, you're a jewel, thank you.

So...basically what's happening here is that Southwind enjoys these women, but does kind of loathe them.

You know, there isn't much in this world that freaks me out, really...but...I just find that a little bit creepy. If you truly loathe something, how can you get turned on by it? Why would you even...watch it? Interestingly enough, though, that's just perhaps his fetish. Though that's one of the fetishes I find disturbing. Truly objectifying women, with no respect for their person.

I really *hope* that isn't what this is.

I'm sorry to say, that's what it sounds like to me as well.

And thank you. I love being called a jewel by women.

 

[sugarb]

I'm sorry to say, that's what it sounds like to me as well.

And thank you. I love being called a jewel by women.

You're welcome.

If that *is* what this is, then I think at the very least this would be a good example of some of the dangers of porn when in the wrong hands. Of course, if porn didn't "do it", something else would--it strikes me that people with this attitude probably think that an abused woman "deserves it" because she isn't "worthy" of respect...but this type of attitude scares me for women. My guy would *never* allow me to be around someone with that kind of attitude...no matter how much my guy at times indeed does objectify me (by mutual consent). I have been in one relationship with a guy like that (early on), and I know a few women in relationships and marriages with men like that, and aside from them being miserable, I get the impression that they are so stifled as people that they're almost suffocating. Dying a slow death, so to speak.

For a while, it might be "easy" to go along with someone who feels that way, but long term, I've seen nothing but misery and abuse come from it. And it's so sad.

But again I'll say that I *hope* that isn't what this is.

 

[MontagK505]

You're welcome.

If that *is* what this is, then I think at the very least this would be a good example of some of the dangers of porn when in the wrong hands. Of course, if porn didn't "do it", something else would--it strikes me that people with this attitude probably think that an abused woman "deserves it" because she isn't "worthy" of respect...but this type of attitude scares me for women. My guy would *never* allow me to be around someone with that kind of attitude...no matter how much my guy at times indeed does objectify me (by mutual consent). I have been in one relationship with a guy like that (early on), and I know a few women in relationships and marriages with men like that, and aside from them being miserable, I get the impression that they are so stifled as people that they're almost suffocating. Dying a slow death, so to speak.

For a while, it might be "easy" to go along with someone who feels that way, but long term, I've seen nothing but misery and abuse come from it. And it's so sad.

But again I'll say that I *hope* that isn't what this is.

Don't forget the eating “poop” fetish. Why he introduced that into the discussion totally mystifies me.