Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[HansMustermann]

Without getting all het up about evidence, data and what not, do you agree that most people, if asked, would say that they have more respect for, say, Eric Clapton or Jerry Seinfeld than [insert name of a famous porn star] (provided, of course, you explain who [famous porn star] is, where necessary)? Now, let's address this fundamental point first. If your answer's "no" (and I'm almost certain() that you know that my answer's "yes", then I honestly can't see us reconciling that, in which case I guess we'll be done and just go our separate ways.

At one point "most people" at least in the USA had more respect for a borderline retard like Dubya over anyone smart or qualified. The latter is too elitist, see?

"Most people" in some places would respect <insert sports star de jour> more than they respect Marie Curie, the only person ever to receive two Nobel prizes in two different disciplines. I mean, Marie who? And she sounds French, eeew. Not to mention she's a woman, and you know how women are no good at maths or tech stuff; God knows by what mistake she musta gotten those awards

"Most people" in at least some parts of the Bible Belt, would have more respect for that principal who ignored even a court order and kept pushing religion in school, then the people who took him to court for it.

So? I fail to see what's important about what most people would respect.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Do you equate consensual sex in a video or an actor portraying a mass murderer with eating poop?

This coprophagia seems to be coming up a lot, as if it was a major feature of porn.

 

[JFrankA]

It seems to me that we're discussing your emotional reaction to something you see in a movie.

Emotional reactions, of course, can't always be explained intelligently because they are emotional. However, if your goal is to get to the bottom of your reactions, it's time to stop saying "normal" and most people as a justification. Saying that only means that you're following the crowd just prove you're right and sorry, that doesn't work.

Simply put, you have no respect for porn actresses even though you are aroused by them. Can you be honest with yourself and say that's hypocritical?

(Note, I'm saying this about the action and not the person).

Why would a woman deserve to be disrespected if she is filmed for, let's say, being involved in a rape fantasy scene? Do you think she deserves to be raped in real life? Do you think that if she was really raped in real life she'd enjoy it? And if you saw her in real life, would you feel that if you had no chance of getting caught, you'd feel like you could rape her and not worry about her reactions to it?

Maybe I'm missing the boat here, or being too extreme, but if your goal is introspection, then I feel it's time to stop defending your position and being a little honest with yourself.

 

[Southwind17]

I'm sorry? You asked if there was a difference. I answered. You didn't ask what that difference was, or any other sort of question that would have required any depth.

Oh for goodness sake. But if you want to play juvenile games so be it (see below).

I was, however, nice enough to educate you as to where you could both verify my answer, as well as find out the difference for yourself.

You're so kind.

Now. Are you going to answer my question?

No.

Or are you spending all this effort complaining about my response because you don't actually know what the phrase "public domain" means, and are embarrassed that someone called you out on it?

No.

 

[Southwind17]

Seems to me that "most people" and "normal" isn't always right.

To reiterate my example "Most people" in America (and therefore, by your definition, "normal") believe Intelligent Design is true.

"Most people" in America (and therefore, by your definition, "normal") believe in some sort of god.

So does that mean that since "Most people" (and therefore, by your definition, "normal"), Evolution and Atheism is now completely false and wrong????

Notwithstanding the technicality that "most people in America" doesn't constitute "most people" (which, I admit, could be argued to be largely immaterial, nothwithstanding that "most people in America" seem to be inordinately religious, by comparison to many other western countries, for example, potentially invalidating your comparison), I'm not sure we're actually talking about right and wrong here (notwithstanding the OP title, which, now we are where we are, might have been better entitled "What are the problems with porn?").

If you're still focusing on my disrespect for porn actresses (which I assume you are, as that's what gave rise directly to your drawing the comparison above), I guess you're challenging the idea that such disrespect is wrong. But who are you to challenge the validity of my respect for something or somebody? I might have little respect for Fiat motorcars. Many people hold Fiats in high regard. So what? Does that make me somehow "wrong" and them somehow "right"?

I'm rapidly coming around to the notion that your challenging my disrespect for something is equally disrespectful. In fact, given the basis of your defending porn actresses and people, like yourself, who respect them, I'm convinced you're being disrespectful.

 

[Southwind17]

This coprophagia seems to be coming up a lot, as if it was a major feature of porn.

It was used to make a point (extremes are good for that!), so, so far as that goes, I can't get enough of it!

 

[JFrankA]

Notwithstanding the technicality that "most people in America" doesn't constitute "most people" (which, I admit, could be argued to be largely immaterial, nothwithstanding that "most people in America" seem to be inordinately religious, by comparison to many other western countries, for example, potentially invalidating your comparison), I'm not sure we're actually talking about right and wrong here (notwithstanding the OP title, which, now we are where we are, might have been better entitled "What are the problems with porn?").

ETA here. Forgot this part.

It is you who keeps bringing up the majority. And as I've stated before, you keep making assumptions for the world's view. You can't do that. At least the statement I've made I can actually back up with real data. You can't. So it doesn't matter if we're talking about the world or a country. I have the data to back up my claims you don't. You have only what you view as what the world thinks. You could be completely wrong, even though you may not want to admit it.

Also the wording of the question doesn't change the intent of the question. Both questions imply that there is something wrong with porn.

If you're still focusing on my disrespect for porn actresses (which I assume you are, as that's what gave rise directly to your drawing the comparison above), I guess you're challenging the idea that such disrespect is wrong. But who are you to challenge the validity of my respect for something or somebody? I might have little respect for Fiat motorcars. Many people hold Fiats in high regard. So what? Does that make me somehow "wrong" and them somehow "right"?

Fiat is an object. It has no feelings, no mind, no thoughts, no life. A porn actress is a human being. I challenge your disrespect because it seems to me, and with this last example is a confirmation, that you do not see female porn actresses as humans, you see them as objects. By your own admission male porn actors are "lucky bastards" so they are human.

Of course I feel your disrespect is wrong. I know many porn actresses and some are good, some are bad, but to instantly disrespect someone right out because they are doing something a) you don't feel is right and b) you enjoy watching anyway is clearly hypocritical.

You claim that part of your goal is challenging your thoughts, yet whenever someone comes up with a point you don't like to explore, you side step it.

I'm asking you, with respect, to be honest.

Let's start with this: Are female porn actresses simple objects?

I'm rapidly coming around to the notion that your challenging my disrespect for something is equally disrespectful. In fact, given the basis of your defending porn actresses and people, like yourself, who respect them, I'm convinced you're being disrespectful.

Woah. What a turn around.

You are hurt and insulted because I disagree with you and actually dare challenge your thoughts?

Now I know we both got off on the wrong foot, and I apologized for that, but now I am approaching you in the vein I thought you wanted: to be honestly challenged. I haven't mocked or insulted you since my apology.

I'm sorry to say this but if you are going to take my disagreement and the challenge I present to you, a challenge you asked for, I may add, then maybe all you are looking for is for people to agree with your every word.

So what is it? Do you really truly want to be challenged? Or do you want confirmation for yourself that your prejudice is correct?

 

[Belz...]

Even shorter if you kept with the program and stopped answering already answered questions!


Not even if the first is a necessary precursor to the second! Let me guess - you're one of those people who reads comics highly educational books from back to front, right?

Just answer the question, Wind.

 

[Belz...]

You can't judge people by their acts.

Of course you can. What else would you judge them about ? Certainly not their thoughts or their genes. So what's left ?

 

[Belz...]

And while you're watching it decent sir would you care for a bucket of faeces to go with your can of urine? I can highly recommend it - the man in the seat next to you has gone super-size!

Are you serious? I suspect so, as you seem to be one of the more balanced contributors, but then your response puzzles me.

See ? Told you.

The key is the publication part, but not publication per se.

And that was the whole point of my question: WHY do you differentiate ? And please, I don't care if "most people wouldn't like it". That doesn't answer the question, either.

 

[Southwind17]

Fiat is an object. It has no feelings, no mind, no thoughts, no life. A porn actress is a human being. I challenge your disrespect because it seems to me, and with this last example is a confirmation, that you do not see female porn actresses as humans, you see them as objects.

I simply used a Fiat car as an example to make a point. You missed the point (because, like many people in this particular thread, you either take me literally or read things into what I write that aren't meant to be there) and, hence, made a wild and incorrect assumption.

Of course I feel your disrespect is wrong. I know many porn actresses and some are good, some are bad, but to instantly disrespect someone right out because they are doing something a) you don't feel is right and b) you enjoy watching anyway is clearly hypocritical.

You need to realize that "respect" is not simply about "good and bad". It goes much deeper than that.

Let's start with this: Are female porn actresses simple objects?

This is an interesting question. It depends on the context. Clearly, in the sense of what they portray as a porn actress, essentially yes, to the same extent that footballers are objects while they're on the field. You've admitted as much yourself. You've drawn a distinct line between what your girl (if she were a porn actress) does for a job and what she does when she gets home.

You are hurt and insulted because I disagree with you and actually dare challenge your thoughts?

Actually, no. Not hurt or insulted at all. I simply correlate my disrespect for porn actresses with what you are doing. You'll recall we discussed considerations and actions above (I don't think a consensus was reached - it kind of fizzled out quickly - maybe we should rekindle that line of enquiry?). Their actions reflect their considerations. If you disrespect someone's actions you're disrespecting their considerations, which is exactly what I'm doing indirectly, and what you're doing directly.

I'm sorry to say this but if you are going to take my disagreement and the challenge I present to you, a challenge you asked for, I may add, then maybe all you are looking for is for people to agree with your every word.

So what is it? Do you really truly want to be challenged? Or do you want confirmation for yourself that your prejudice is correct?

Happy to be challenged - no problem. But all I'm getting here is the Monty Python 10-minute argument, which, frankly (no pun intended), is becoming tedious.

 

[HansMustermann]

Of course you can. What else would you judge them about ? Certainly not their thoughts or their genes. So what's left ?

Well, of course you can, but someone's doing act X even repeatedly, just tells you "they probably have no problem with doing X". Which isn't a particularly damning thing if X is, say, eating haggis.

I think what most of us have a problem with is with going beyond that part, into generally unsupported conclusions about someone's character, general world view, morals, or armchair shrink gigs like "low self esteem".

But in the end it seems to me like the usefulness of knowing that for _any_ X is very limited and only relevant for very specific situations, in comparison with just knowing they did X and whether that's a crime. E.g., even in Ted Bundy's case it's not as important to take a guess that he's not against killing women and humping their corpse, as the fact that he actually did kill some three dozen. It's not the former that got him a happy fun ride on the electric chair, it's the latter.

On the whole, it kinda reminds me of, "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination."

 

[JFrankA]

I simply used a Fiat car as an example to make a point. You missed the point (because, like many people in this particular thread, you either take me literally or read things into what I write that aren't meant to be there) and, hence, made a wild and incorrect assumption.

I'm simply trying to understand why you disrespect porn actress and yet enjoy their performances, and, presumably, get aroused by them.

Further, if you are honest in your desire to challenge yourself, I feel you should ask yourself why porn actors deserve respect, when they are the one actually doing the actions that you find disgusting to the woman in the porn?

And even more further, though you may not like it and believe that there's not much of it, what about the porn actors who allow portrayal of the acts that the porn actresses do? There's a whole bunch of them out there.

Do you see the hypocrisy you are displaying?

You need to realize that "respect" is not simply about "good and bad". It goes much deeper than that.

Of course it does. But by your own admission, you're not even going to "good or bad" you are instantly disrespecting. I try not to do that.

This is an interesting question. It depends on the context. Clearly, in the sense of what they portray as a porn actress, essentially yes, to the same extent that footballers are objects while they're on the field. You've admitted as much yourself. You've drawn a distinct line between what your girl (if she were a porn actress) does for a job and what she does when she gets home.

I don't agree with you. Her job is her job. That doesn't make her an object. For example, if an athlete gets injured, even if he's from the other team, people feel for him. He is NOT an object. When an actress in a non-porn movie gets hurt as part of the scene, you feel for the character, but the actress is still human. If she really was hurt during the shooting of the scene, there would be concern, sympathy and even empathy.

Further, if you do feel that a porn actress is just an object, do you feel the same way if you met her in person?

I asked this question before and here it is again, a little altered.

If a woman deserves to be disrespected if she is filmed for, let's say, being involved in a rape fantasy scene? Do you think she deserves to be raped in real life? Do you think that if she was really raped in real life she'd enjoy it? And if you saw her in real life, would you feel that if you had no chance of getting caught, you'd feel like you could rape her and not worry about her reactions to it?

Now if you came on here saying "I don't respect what female porn actresses are doing", that's a whole different ballgame. But you are saying that you do not respect the person. Major difference. However, I'm going to guess that you do not see the difference. Maybe I'm wrong?

Actually, no. Not hurt or insulted at all. I simply correlate my disrespect for porn actresses with what you are doing. You'll recall we discussed considerations and actions above (I don't think a consensus was reached - it kind of fizzled out quickly - maybe we should rekindle that line of enquiry?). Their actions reflect their considerations. If you disrespect someone's actions you're disrespecting their considerations, which is exactly what I'm doing indirectly, and what you're doing directly.

I may disapprove of what someone does or says but that doesn't mean I disrespect them. You said it yourself, it's more than "good or bad". I have, and a lot of people on this thread have been saying it's a lot more than that.

You are the one who says that you don't respect one group of people because you don't approve of what they do for a living, regardless of other factors in the individuals from that group of people, and the "normal" people of this whole world agrees with you. Further, you not only disrespect them, and disapprove of their actions, you watch what they do a lot and get aroused by it.

Again, I ask you, do you see the hypocrisy here?

Happy to be challenged - no problem. But all I'm getting here is the Monty Python 10-minute argument, which, frankly (no pun intended), is becoming tedious.

Give me a break. There are plenty of people on this thread who are trying to get to the root of the reason why you are feeling this way. That means asking questions you feel are clear. Since a lot of people don't think like you do, we may re-ask the same question in a different way in an attempt to understand. Just as we try to reiterate and explain our points over and over in an attempt to have you see our viewpoints. That's called communication. Frustrating? Tedious? Yeah, sometimes, but that' s the way it is when you are asked to be challenged.

No need to go to insults. We both made that mistake. I refuse to do it again.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm simply trying to understand why you disrespect porn actress and yet enjoy their performances, and, presumably, get aroused by them.

Further, if you are honest in your desire to challenge yourself, I feel you should ask yourself why porn actors deserve respect, when they are the one actually doing the actions that you find disgusting to the woman in the porn?

And even more further, though you may not like it and believe that there's not much of it, what about the porn actors who allow portrayal of the acts that the porn actresses do? There's a whole bunch of them out there.

Do you see the hypocrisy you are displaying?

It makes me wonder if his issue is a Madonna/Whore thing.

 

[Southwind17]

E.g., even in Ted Bundy's case it's not as important to take a guess that he's not against killing women and humping their corpse, as the fact that he actually did kill some three dozen. It's not the former that got him a happy fun ride on the electric chair, it's the latter.

Exactly - he was judged on his actions. But what caused him to perpetrate those actions?

 

[JFrankA]

Exactly - he was judged on his actions. But what caused him to perpetrate those actions?

His disrespect for women? His belief that women are objects? His inability to empathize with another human being? His utter disregard for the consequences of his actions?


....am I close?

 

[Belz...]

Well, of course you can, but someone's doing act X even repeatedly, just tells you "they probably have no problem with doing X". Which isn't a particularly damning thing if X is, say, eating haggis.

I think what most of us have a problem with is with going beyond that part, into generally unsupported conclusions about someone's character, general world view, morals, or armchair shrink gigs like "low self esteem".

Agreed.

 

[Southwind17]

I'm simply trying to understand why you disrespect porn actress and yet enjoy their performances, and, presumably, get aroused by them.

Probably the same reason that hire cars tend to get disrespected and abused by people (and not just Fiats!). You don't honestly think porn actresses take up the vocation to gain respect, do you?!

Of course it does. But by your own admission, you're not even going to "good or bad" you are instantly disrespecting. I try not to do that.

Not by this rationale you don't:

I do and I have. One has to. I don't see how you can go into a jury without being neutral.

So 5 out of 10 is neutral is it? I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. I make that 10 out of 10 and then downhill from there, according to the prosecution's evidence!

 

[Belz...]

If a woman deserves to be disrespected if she is filmed for, let's say, being involved in a rape fantasy scene?

I have a question of my own, Southwind. What about women who perform simulated rape scenes in movies or docu-dramas that are clearly not meant to arouse ?

 

[Southwind17]

His disrespect for women? His belief that women are objects? His inability to empathize with another human being? His utter disregard for the consequences of his actions?


....am I close?

You're spot on. In other words, his thoughts. He was judged on his thoughts, which played out in his actions. What he thought sent him to the chair. Do you respect him, though?