What's going on in Paris?

It is quite possible that the riots, as the French on this forum say, were sparked by the idiotic statement of the police chief. But that's just the problem: if having a jackass-of-a-police-chief say something stupid is enough for you to go out to smash, burn, riot, and attack policemen, you are a barbarian.

Being civilized means among other things being able to resist provocation and conquer one's violent impulses--two things without which civilization could not exist. That one's insensate violence had its "root cause" in one's inability to resist the impulse to react to a stupid statement by a police chief, does not make him morally responsible for your violence.

If the police chief's statement is the "root cause" that "sparked" the riots, then the wife's demand that the husband take out the garbage the moment he is through the door after a hard day at work is the "root cause" that "sparked" her beating, too.

But in both cases, it is not the misdeeds or annoying statements of the police chief or the wife that are to blame--it is the lack of self-control and propensity to violence of the rioters and husband. They are both barbarians.
 
WildCat said:
Funny how when you assume that an economy is like a pie that has to be divided, and set policy accordingly, the pie actually shrinks and everyone loses in the end. Those at the bottom of the socio-economic spectrum will feel the full effect first, but this will hit all French in the end IMHO. Germany should be taking note of all this, their economy and society is similarly structured.
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Compared to France, we´re downright Libertarian.
 
Orwell, I just read through most of what you've said in this thread and I'm not sure what it is that you believe relative to how French economic policies have contributed to the causes of the riots.

Right now, I understand that you have some negative feelings about Milton Friedman and economics, but I haven't seen anything posted by you that specifically addresses the ideas that CBL4 et al. put forth.

Do you think it is possible that a government can increase unemployment by forcing businesses to pay more in the form of fringe benefits or direct wages?

Do you think it is possible that unemployment is high in France as a result of French economic policies? If so what are those policies. If not what does cause the high French unemployment rate?

Do you think it is possible that unemployment has contributed to the causes of the riots?
 
While watching some CNN footage (daytime) of the concerned area, I could not help but be struck by the similarity to the local Pruitt-Igoe housing units that were notorious here in St. Louis as hotbeds of "unrest".
Even the surrounding areas, with the rather typical sorts of buisnesses often run by absentee owners from yet different racial groups....

Apparently the French learned little from the unrest we've seen at various times.
 
Is Paris Burning?

Where is the political leadership in France?

I, as an ignorant American, think that there is a sea-change afoot in France in term of Culture and the way The French think of themselves.

Guess what? -

Rosa Parks died and her legacy set foot on French soil.

The 21st Century is rolling into France and the Bourbons are asking the French - again - to eat Cake.

Cake is not in the modern French diet.

France cannot decide to ignore the political and social reality of this wake up call.
When will the Government of France realize the need for an acceptance of her new citizens?

Anyone know if George Wallace was a descendant of French parents? Strom Thurmond?

No - they were from white Anglo-Saxon stock.

And the mistakes and cultural protectiveness of France just acerbate the situation.
Learn from the U.S.A.
[Go ahead a gag - we forgive you. Screwed up as we are at least we react and change...]


Vive La France. Live long and Live well.

But Marie lost her head.

Please don't repeat the mistakes of the U.S.
 
BTW -

Quebec doesn't care about you anymore.

[Thought you should know]

And the Cajuns don't either.

BTW - what ever happened to Papa Doc's son?
Dead yet?

And Aristede? Still wanting to be President of Hati with all of his Million$?
 
Hmmm, so you are thinking Paris is ok?

I'm coming over in a few weeks.

I'm a little nervous about one place I want to photograph. I've done some nice pics of the old Paris mosque. It's gorgeous and a photographers dream. However, last time I was there I was the only tourist. Also, I kept getting asked if I were part of a tour. No, I just paid and went in on my own. I was kind of shadowed, and I wondered if I were commiting some sort of insult by taking a lot of photographs (I was careful not to photograph people). I did dress correctly (having checked with my daughter, who has lived in an Arabic nation).

I really would love to update my photographs, but I'm wondering about being in that part of Paris, and if I might be especially offensive being a woman on my own this time.

Also, it does seem that younger Moslems are more into radical Moslem beliefs. Or is that just a media thing? I know many Moslems left their home nations for Paris and other places because of persecution from thier own governments. But perhaps this new generation that has grown up in France (and elsewhere) doesn't have that history.
 
My gut says wipe out the fire-starters to the last man. My cerebral self says this might not be a good long-term policy. I'm torn.
 
Skeptic said:
If the police chief's statement is the "root cause" that "sparked" the riots, then the wife's demand that the husband take out the garbage the moment he is through the door after a hard day at work is the "root cause" that "sparked" her beating, too.
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Why the quotation marks? No one wrote 'root cause' or 'sparked' besides yourself, and you have no right to assign these words to any unnamed supposedly French poster.
 
Nick Bogaerts said:
Why the quotation marks? No one wrote 'root cause' or 'sparked' besides yourself, and you have no right to assign these words to any unnamed supposedly French poster.
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I´m afraid you misunderstand. He said so, therefore it is so. We are all barbarians and terrorist-supporters... and anti-semites, I guess.

All clear now? ;)
 
Skeptic said:
It is quite possible that the riots, as the French on this forum say, were sparked by the idiotic statement of the police chief. But that's just the problem: if having a jackass-of-a-police-chief say something stupid is enough for you to go out to smash, burn, riot, and attack policemen, you are a barbarian.

Being civilized means among other things being able to resist provocation and conquer one's violent impulses--two things without which civilization could not exist. That one's insensate violence had its "root cause" in one's inability to resist the impulse to react to a stupid statement by a police chief, does not make him morally responsible for your violence.

If the police chief's statement is the "root cause" that "sparked" the riots, then the wife's demand that the husband take out the garbage the moment he is through the door after a hard day at work is the "root cause" that "sparked" her beating, too.

But in both cases, it is not the misdeeds or annoying statements of the police chief or the wife that are to blame--it is the lack of self-control and propensity to violence of the rioters and husband. They are both barbarians.
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There's an aspect of these sad events that has been rather overlooked by media until now: a vast majority of rioters and fire-starters are under-age teens, aged 12 to 17. That they lack self-control, and act irresponsibly comes thus as no real surprise. Kids are by definition not supposed to be considered as adults, and judged as such.

What is truly upsetting and alarming is the apparent development of a teen male gang subculture of violence in these suburbs. Clues that such a thing is happening are more and more evident since a bit less than a decade in France: collective rapes, confronting of rival gangs ending with death of a participant or a passer-by, stoning of buses and fireworkers, aggression on teachers in classroom, racket when the chidren come out of school, etc. Where 30 years ago teens adherent to punk subculture shouted "no future", and engaged in mock, sham, or symbolic violence, today male kids in those French suburbs seem to have fully internalized "no future" and engage in real violence.

About "police chief". Minister of interior Nicolas Sarkozy is neither an idiot nor a jackass, and did carefully choose and intentionally use words like "scum". He simply is already campaigning for the 2007 presidential election, and obviously tries to seduce voters for the extreme right. Since some months his discourse includes more and more Le Pen-like lexical features. Now, if this may indeed bring him more votes coming from extreme right in 2007, it certainly doesn't bring him more popularity in impoverished multiracial suburbs in 2005. Furthermore, it's not simply a question of words: when police chief starts to selectively speak like Le Pen, it has consequences on the behavior of more than one police officer.


manny said:
The rioters are disorganized, so the authorities aren't sure who to surrender to.
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Sarkozy declared on 11/03 that those acting the preceding night were "perfectly organized". He surely wants to prove to the rest of the world that this time authorities will not surrender...

BTW, Sarkozy's attempt to put forth some kind of conspiracy theory doesn't work: most people dont buy it. It is indeed not too difficult to understand that kids aged 13-15 do learn very quickly. After a few nights they have adopted what roughly is the up-to-date tactic of CRS (anti-riot forces): highly mobile small groups. Furthermore they have altered their initial tactic: they tend to avoid direct confrontation with police, just set a fire and run.

PS: I do live in Paris since 20 years.
 
Spoke with my mother this a.m. "Guess who's not going to France this summer" was almost the first thing out of her mouth. She normally goes every year to visit her sister in Provence. Told me some of the arsons going on around Paris are not far from where she grew up.

She straightened me out on one thing though - why the police can't roll out with tear gas. These aren't riots in the usual sense of mobs in the streets, but generally kids on motor scooters with molotov cocktails. I guess I need to read up a little more on this.

Question for the French people here: What are the laws in France regarding private ownership of firearms? If the police are unable to prevent someone from firebombing your business, do you have the right to do so?
 
kittynh said:
Hmmm, so you are thinking Paris is ok?

I'm coming over in a few weeks.

I'm a little nervous about one place I want to photograph. I've done some nice pics of the old Paris mosque. It's gorgeous and a photographers dream. However, last time I was there I was the only tourist. Also, I kept getting asked if I were part of a tour. No, I just paid and went in on my own. I was kind of shadowed, and I wondered if I were commiting some sort of insult by taking a lot of photographs (I was careful not to photograph people). I did dress correctly (having checked with my daughter, who has lived in an Arabic nation).

I really would love to update my photographs, but I'm wondering about being in that part of Paris, and if I might be especially offensive being a woman on my own this time.

Also, it does seem that younger Moslems are more into radical Moslem beliefs. Or is that just a media thing? I know many Moslems left their home nations for Paris and other places because of persecution from thier own governments. But perhaps this new generation that has grown up in France (and elsewhere) doesn't have that history.
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Yes, Paris currently is perfectly OK and safe. There still are many joint police-army patrols in airports, rail stations, and frequently visited places.

About the Grande mosquée de Paris (yes, beautiful place: http://www.mosquee-de-paris.net/cat_index_54.html) and your feeling of having been "shadowed": it probably was the case (I also did experience something like that there) but it certainly had more to do with security measures than with you being a woman. This place has repeatedly been the target of acts of vandalism, suffered one attack with petrol bomb in 2003, and that same year a young neonazi who had planned to perpetrate a suicide attack in this mosquee was condemned. So they are understandably a bit suspicious there.

Don't hesitate to contact me if you want some assistance.
 
I recall reading that France has basically an open door policy to nationals of former French colonies and that this policy is what allowed for the prevelence of so many moslems in their population. Is this so?
 
davefoc said:
Do you think it is possible that unemployment has contributed to the causes of the riots?
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I believe that unemployment amongst most of the rioters is primarily due to social exclusion and racism. French economic policies are a secondary factor.

I find it curious that whenever there's a problem in France, whatever the problem is, someone will always mention the French economy as its root cause. It has become a damn leitmotif around here! The economy isn't everything, not all problems are economic problems. You may be confusing cause and effect.
 
Orwell said:
I believe that unemployment amongst most of the rioters is primarily due to social exclusion and racism. French economic policies are a secondary factor.

I find it curious that whenever there's a problem in France, whatever the problem is, someone will always mention the French economy as its root cause. It has become a damn leitmotif around here! The economy isn't everything, not all problems are economic problems. You may be confusing cause and effect.
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E-vee-den-se

Yeah, its not like the economy affects everything and everybody after all :rolleyes:
 
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