What's going on in Paris?

manny said:
How does that square with the reports that the rioters had got as far as the Place de la Republique in the 3rd Arrondissemont? Very sad -- I love that neighborhood and I usually stay around the Bastille when I go. :(
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The patrols are part of a plan to prevent terrorist attacks in "classical" or a priori obvious target places like airports, railway stations, or the Eiffel tower.

Place de la République isn't such a high priority area (there is more surveillance in place de la Bastille and around). I don't know why arsons do like Place de la République (I have had a practice there but never liked this neighborhood): almost every 14th of July (national holiday) cars are burned there. Nothing new thus, apart from date...
 
Freakshow said:
On what is this belief based?
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You kidding, right?

Ok, in case you aren't: this belief is based on the fact that most of the rioting is attributed to poor, often Muslim, immigrants (or their descendants), and on the fact that all the riots started in the suburban "ghettos" were these people are living.

Unemployment and underemployed certainly plays a role, but I think that the difficulty North Africans have experienced in trying to integrate into French society (and get decent jobs) is one of the reasons why it got bad enough to start riots.

Why do you think you have occasional "race riots" in the US, the supposed land of economical opportunity?
 
Orwell said:
I believe that unemployment amongst most of the rioters is primarily due to social exclusion and racism.
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Well, it is before all due to their age: unemployment amongst most 13-15 years old is high in most Western nations. Or am I missing something?
 
Ed said:
I recall reading that France has basically an open door policy to nationals of former French colonies and that this policy is what allowed for the prevelence of so many moslems in their population. Is this so?
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This policy ended with the rise of unemployment during the late seventies. France currently has a basically closed door policy to all non EU immigrants.
 
Alphaba said:
Well, it is before all due to their age: unemployment amongst most 13-15 years old is high in most Western nations. Or am I missing something?
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Uh, maybe I'm missing something here too.. Most 13 to 15 year olds should be in school, shouldn't they? If they are out rioting, then it can be argued that it is because French society hasn't been taking care of them adequately. Which comes down to social exclusion and racism...
 
Orwell said:
You kidding, right?

Ok, in case you aren't: this belief is based on the fact that most of the rioting is attributed to poor, often Muslim, immigrants (or their descendants), and on the fact that all the riots started in the suburban "ghettos" were these people are living.

Unemployment and underemployed certainly plays a role, but I think that the difficulty North Africans have experienced in trying to integrate into French society (and get decent jobs) is one of the reasons why it got bad enough to start riots.

Why do you think you have occasional "race riots" in the US, the supposed land of economical opportunity?
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You just switched topics. I asked you about unemployment. Now you are talking about riots. Stick to the subject of unemployment.
 
Here's what I said:
I believe that unemployment amongst most of the rioters is primarily due to social exclusion and racism. French economic policies are a secondary factor.
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I was talking about unemployment amongst the rioters since the beginning (that's what the thread is about, innit?) not unemployment in general.
 
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Orwell said:
Here's what I said:
I was talking about unemployment amongst the rioters since the beginning (that's what the thread is about, innit?) not general unemployment.
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I know what you meant. But I still don't see any evidence that their situation in life is primarily due to discrimination against them. I'm not saying it isn't. I don't know enough to comment one way or the other. Do you?
 
Orwell said:
Uh, maybe I'm missing something here too.. Most 13 to 15 year olds should be in school, shouldn't they? If they are out rioting, then it can be argued that it is because French society hasn't been taking care of them adequately. Which comes down to social exclusion and racism...
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You're right about social exclusion, and discrimination. It is just that the kid rioters aren't supposed to be employed. Rather it is their parents, and elder brothers and sisters who are unemployed.

It is indeed much more difficult for people living in these "ghettos" not only to find a job, but also to find another apartment elsewhere. Unemployment rates are 2 to 3 time higher than in Paris proper. Just living there is a kind of stigma when one applies for a job offer, or wants to enter a reputed university or grande école. Yes there is a major failure of French society and authorities since 30 years in dealing with these places and populations. Racial discrimination is still rampant in many sectors of the society.
 
Orwell said:
Oh, I agree that economics is a science. What I don't agree with is with what kind of science it is. It is not a predictive science. It should be simply considered a descriptive science.
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I disagree here... it is a predictive science, but it is incomplete and imperfect. Much like meteorology, IMO. It's not very accurate, but it's better than just guessing.

I would go so far as to add, regarding Milton Friedman (having studied his work in graduate macroeconomics courses)... his models and principles are excellent in pursuit of the goals of efficiency and maximizing utility (which is all it ever claimed to be). Add a human element, and some contrary (though not mutually exclusive) goals, and that means some deviation is necessary. On the other hand, it's an excellent starting point even so.
 
Chaos said:
I´m afraid you misunderstand. He said so, therefore it is so. We are all barbarians and terrorist-supporters... and anti-semites, I guess.

All clear now? ;)
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Straw man. Thank you.
 
Orwell said:
Uh, maybe I'm missing something here too.. Most 13 to 15 year olds should be in school, shouldn't they? If they are out rioting, then it can be argued that it is because French society hasn't been taking care of them adequately. Which comes down to social exclusion and racism...
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Essentially, by your reasoning, anything at all that happens with minorities can be attributed to racism against those minorities, and you don't need any evidence beyond your own speculation.
 
hey, can we get back to PARIS here???

start an economics thread!

This is why the riots aren't stopping. I grew up in DC, and trust me I know riots. The rioting after Martin Luther King was assasinated didn't stop because people took the time to argue on CNN (which wasn't around) about WHY they were happening. The point of rioting in general is that it often hurts the people rioting the most. Keep the rioting in the minority neighborhoods and it can go on for awhile. Even if it spreads. There has often be criticism about riots being allowed to go on without a real strong effort to stop them because hey, it's rioting in their own backyard. So the families and businesses that live in these minority areas are the ones that get hit hardest. You think the average Muslim with a business in France is happy about this rioting? No way! One of my favorite places to eat in Paris is owned by a Moslem family. They have expressed their beliefs that these young hooligans (at least I think that was the correct translation...teenage criminal was more direct) should be treated as any other young person who breaks the law. Just because you are a minority, you can't break the law. Let's give them all some copies of Thoreau!
 
Mycroft said:
Essentially, by your reasoning, anything at all that happens with minorities can be attributed to racism against those minorities, and you don't need any evidence beyond your own speculation.
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No, I'm arguing that racism plays a primary role, I'm not excluding other things. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)

Now 'scuse me, but are you now going to argue that racism and social exclusion has nothing to do with what's going on in France? If you are, please do, it's bound to be a pretty entertaining read!
 
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Orwell said:
No, I'm arguing that racism plays a primary role, I'm not excluding other things. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. ;)

Now 'scuse me, but are you now going to argue that racism and social exclusion has nothing to do with what's going on in France? If you are, please do, it's bound to be a pretty entertaining read!
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And I will ask again...on what evidence are you basing that?
 
Orwell said:
Why do you think you have occasional "race riots" in the US, the supposed land of economical opportunity?
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And why none of these riots have ever been staged by, say, Vietnamese immigrants to the US?

In the ongoing French rioting, are the participants mostly arab Algerian-descent moslems?
 
hammegk said:
And why none of these riots have ever been staged by, say, Vietnamese immigrants to the US?
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Probably because African-American and Hispanics are way more numerous and have been around for a much longer time.

hammegk said:
In the ongoing French rioting, are the participants mostly arab Algerian-descent moslems?
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They're either North-Africans, or they live in neighbourhoods where north-africans are a significant chunk of the population.
 
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