What would you accept as PROOF of a God?

You're arguing that "Sufficient evidence" and simply "evidence" aren't the same thing. Who defines what "Sufficient" means? It's totally relative to who is deciding what is sufficient or not. Hardly any evidence could be sufficient enough for some people.

sufficient is a rigourously defined term used in both mathematical and philosphical logic. It is the equivilent of learning basic arithmetic operators. Yet you want to conduct a proof of God without even understanding what necessary and sufficient conditions are. I am constantly amazed by your ignorance.
 
Here's a nice concise definition of logical proof:
a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is true something else necessarily follows from it
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+proof

That's the definition of "Logical proof" not simply "Proof".

This, and only this, is the definition of "proof" in the context of your argument, and in this context it is not synonymous with evidence in any way.

How so? How is it the definition of the context of my argument?
 
sufficient is a rigourously defined term used in both mathematical and philosphical logic. It is the equivilent of learning basic arithmetic operators. Yet you want to conduct a proof of God without even understanding what necessary and sufficient conditions are. I am constantly amazed by your ignorance.

rigorously*

philosophical*

equivalent*

BTW, Who says my context is mathematical or philosophical logic when I say "proof of God"? I didn't.
 
It would attract my sustained attention, if the pencil on my desk lifted in the air and hovered for a count of three.
 
That's the definition of "Logical proof" not simply "Proof".

Exactly



How so? How is it the definition of the context of my argument?
Because you have constructed a logical proof. You have not proven in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense, but in the rigorous formal logic sense.
 
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Because you have constructed a logical proof. You have not proven in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense, but in the rigorous formal logic sense.

How so? How is my question constructed as a "logical" one where logical proof is needed?

So what type of proof have you presented us? An illogical one?


Is this a joke? Or are you totally unaware of what a "logical argument" is?
 
rigorously*

philosophical*

equivalent*

BTW, Who says my context is mathematical or philosophical logic when I say "proof of God"? I didn't.

We have a slam dunk.

No further questions.

Thank you and goodnight.

Other cliches.

In what framework is your proof set if not through philosophical or mathematical logic? You use iff operators in your ontological argument, perhaps you should look up what those are.
 
You're arguing that "Sufficient evidence" and simply "evidence" aren't the same thing. Who defines what "Sufficient" means? It's totally relative to who is deciding what is sufficient or not. Hardly any evidence could be sufficient enough for some people.


Yes! Yes, Dustin my boy! That is exactly right.

The question of how much evidence is sufficient to prove something is at the absolute heart of law, science and logic.

I'm glad you see that now.

Who decides what constitutes sufficient evidence to be considered proof? It depends on the type of use we intend to make of the information.

In this thread, you asked people what evidence they personally would accept as proof. That's the lowest, most subjective level possible. It has no application except to satisfy the individual thinker. It may not even satisfy his best friend or closest ally.

In law, there are many different standards of proof that we, as a society, have settled on. If you rob my store and I sue you for the money you stole, I have to prove you took it by a preponderance of the evidence - that it is more likely than not that you took it. But if the DA wants to charge you with a crime, she has to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Notice, the jurors are still allowed to convict you if they have doubt, just not reasonable doubt. The higher standard is employed because being conviced of a crime by the state is much more serious than a private action for money.

Scientists have an entirely different standard of proof. They generally consider a matter settled when there is no known evidence that does not fit their theory. They do not allow themselves any doubt at all. If there is any doubt, the matter is entirely undecided. Even then, scientists know that new information might be discovered that will cast doubt on even the most long-settled principles. So they never consider a matter proven. Ever. It is impossible to prove a matter in science, only to temporarily relieve doubt and satisfy their minds.

Logical proof is the highest standard of proof there is. It means that the conclusion is necessarily true if the premises are true. There is zero room for doubt.

Now, your question is, "Who defines what 'Sufficient' means?" This is an excellent question. The answer is that everyone involved in the discussion must agree how much evidence will constitute proof. To do so, they use logic. The people of the US say that they want criminals in jail but they don't want a powerful government railroading helpless individuals for political reasons; thus they demand proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Scientists say that they want a clear understanding of the way the world works but they don't want to fall into the trap of dogmatism that weighed down the Dark Ages; thus they never consider a matter proven. Logicians say they want to be certain that their conclusions are indisputably rock-solid so they can build upon them; thus they accept only perfect internal consistency as proof.

When is proof an entirely subjective matter? Whenever the only person you have to convince is yourself.

Was Halo better than Halo 2? Did Keri Russel make a mistake cutting her hair? Are the Yankees done for the season? - Whatever you decide about these issues is the right answer because the only person bound by the decision is yourself.

But when attempting to convince others, you're going to have to agree on a standard of proof first.

In this thread, you have randomly varried between the highest and lowest standards of proof as it suits you at the moment. And that behavior will never help you prove anything to anybody.
 
Yes! Yes, Dustin my boy! That is exactly right.

The question of how much evidence is sufficient to prove something is at the absolute heart of law, science and logic.

I'm glad you see that now.

Who decides what constitutes sufficient evidence to be considered proof? It depends on the type of use we intend to make of the information.

In this thread, you asked people what evidence they personally would accept as proof. That's the lowest, most subjective level possible. It has no application except to satisfy the individual thinker. It may not even satisfy his best friend or closest ally.

In law, there are many different standards of proof that we, as a society, have settled on. If you rob my store and I sue you for the money you stole, I have to prove you took it by a preponderance of the evidence - that it is more likely than not that you took it. But if the DA wants to charge you with a crime, she has to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Notice, the jurors are still allowed to convict you if they have doubt, just not reasonable doubt. The higher standard is employed because being conviced of a crime by the state is much more serious than a private action for money.

Scientists have an entirely different standard of proof. They generally consider a matter settled when there is no known evidence that does not fit their theory. They do not allow themselves any doubt at all. If there is any doubt, the matter is entirely undecided. Even then, scientists know that new information might be discovered that will cast doubt on even the most long-settled principles. So they never consider a matter proven. Ever. It is impossible to prove a matter in science, only to temporarily relieve doubt and satisfy their minds.

Logical proof is the highest standard of proof there is. It means that the conclusion is necessarily true if the premises are true. There is zero room for doubt.

Now, your question is, "Who defines what 'Sufficient' means?" This is an excellent question. The answer is that everyone involved in the discussion must agree how much evidence will constitute proof. To do so, they use logic. The people of the US say that they want criminals in jail but they don't want a powerful government railroading helpless individuals for political reasons; thus they demand proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Scientists say that they want a clear understanding of the way the world works but they don't want to fall into the trap of dogmatism that weighed down the Dark Ages; thus they never consider a matter proven. Logicians say they want to be certain that their conclusions are indisputably rock-solid so they can build upon them; thus they accept only perfect internal consistency as proof.

When is proof an entirely subjective matter? Whenever the only person you have to convince is yourself.

Was Halo better than Halo 2? Did Keri Russel make a mistake cutting her hair? Are the Yankees done for the season? - Whatever you decide about these issues is the right answer because the only person bound by the decision is yourself.

But when attempting to convince others, you're going to have to agree on a standard of proof first.

In this thread, you have randomly varried between the highest and lowest standards of proof as it suits you at the moment. And that behavior will never help you prove anything to anybody.


So in asking "What proof would you accept for God?" I then can't criticize the purported proof they offer up as an answer? :rolleyes:
 
How so? How is my question constructed as a "logical" one where logical proof is needed?

This thread was the buildup to the Proof of God thread right? No, the construction of the question in this thread does not necessitate a logical proof for an answer. But this is why I clarified the kind of answer I was going to give before I gave it. My answer was what would constitute evidence in the legal sense - i.e., something that would convince me.

In your Proof of God thread you are most definitely dealing with a logical proof, and only a logical proof. You are not dealing with evidence. I feel you are being dishonest by trying to blur the lines.
 
So in asking "What proof would you accept for God?" I then can't criticize the purported proof they offer up as an answer? :rolleyes:


That's absolutely right. The question asks for an opinion. No opinion can be wrong.

However, in saying, "I have proven the existence of God," you have to measure up to a much higher standard of proof because you are trying to convince others, a standard of proof agreed on in advance by all parties.

If you say, "I have proven God sufficently for myself," you can use whichever level of proof you like and everyone (or most people here, I suspect), will say, "Good for you, Dustin. We're glad you've settled that issue in your own mind." Then, they will go get a strawberry smoothie and make some phone calls.
 
How so? How is my question constructed as a "logical" one where logical proof is needed?


Well, your argument in the OP of the "Proof of God" thread certainly is. You even use formal logical notation to explain it.

But the real reason that it is held to the standard of a logical proof is that you intend to build on it. You intend the conclusion of that argument ("There is an omni* God") to be a premise in your next arguments:

- Such God is identical to the New Testament God
- We as humans should obey the word of God
- Jesus was our Lord and savior

Or whatever else you want to convince people of. If you want to use that conclusion as a premise in a new argument, it must necessarily follow from your basic premisses. Otherwise, your second argument will be fatally flawed right from the start.
 
Dustin - You are still utterly wrong.

Funny how I'm not the only one who thinks that your misunderstanding and abuse of 'proof' is fundamental.

I'm glad that you're persuaded by your 'proof'. Bask in the glory - you've achieved the impossible.

Your service to your god will be remembered in school pageants and little plaster figurines of you will be given to children to paint, always in a respectful manner.

Courses about your proof will be offered in Advanced Courses in all of the best schools (only the fundie Christian universities have been allowed to remain open, of course).

I'm sure that you'll supported by the surtaxes that I and other skeptics will happily pay, just in case you come up with an even cooler proof.

Wait a minute - you didn't actually come up with this proof, did you?

Didn't you receive it from The Great Beyond during an epiphanic and spiritually orgasmic moment on the side of the road?

Still, you did have the faith to recognize its perfection and brilliance and brought it down from the mountain. Not to mention the coherence of your presentation and the brilliance with which you defended it from us morons.

Gee, you're wonderful!

Whatcha gonna do for an encore?
 
Pixy - Forgive me for never having mentioned how wonderful you are.

:alc:

(No concepts were wounded in the making of this post.)
 
You're arguing that "Sufficient evidence" and simply "evidence" aren't the same thing. Who defines what "Sufficient" means? It's totally relative to who is deciding what is sufficient or not. Hardly any evidence could be sufficient enough for some people.


Wow, that's really grasping for straws.

Dustin, just leave the goal posts where they were. They were just fine, there.
 

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