What would you accept as PROOF of a God?

D'rok said:
The truth of the first premise has nothing whatsoever to do with the validity of the argument.
Dustin said:
In my specific argument it does.
Dustin, you are still maintaining a fundamental misunderstanding about formal logic. Truth and validity are separate concepts. Validity never relies upon truth. I'll simply point you to some review and wish you the best.

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/tvs.html
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/syllabus/node6.html

Cheers.
 
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If you assume that you exist and that the world is basically as you perceive it (what any sane person must do for practical reasons) then you could easily say 'definitely'.


I actually expected this answer from you, Dustin. Not surprisingly, you've made another logical error. This time it's an argument from incredulity. I'll explain it to you. Slowly.

Cbish had said that if the stars lined up to spell something, that would be proof enough for him of god. You answered that sufficiently advanced aliens could have done it.

Then you said that the fossil record proves evolution. When it was pointed out that sufficiently advanced aliens could have planted the fossils, you responded that your statement is true if we accept "that the world is basically as you perceive it."

But what is it that you accept when you accept that the world is basically as you perceive it? I doubt that you personally have perceived many fossils in person. You have not studied them (and neither have I). You have accepted them as true because other people have said they are true and these people seem like a trustworthy sort. What they've said seems to make sense to you.

Why do they seem trustworthy? Why do their theories seem to make sense? Probably, the reason is that you are familiar with what they say and most people generally accept it as true.

How do you know the earth is round? You've never personally perceived the curvature of the earth. There are relatively few people who have been up the 100,000 feet necessary to do so. Are there 600,000 people on earth right now who have flown into space? Even that many would mean that 99.99% of living humans have never perceived that the earth is curved.

And what about the stars rearranging to spell out a message? Why is it that this does not prove the existence of god sufficiently for you? The reason is that you are not familiar with it. You are incredulous of it. If science textbooks talked about a message written in distant stars that could be seen by sufficiently large telescopes, if there were pictures of the message, if scientists all agreed that it was a genuine message from god, if all the people on the planet all agreed that this was real, if mankind agreed that this was sufficient proof of god - would it be sufficient for you then?

See, you don't believe fossils prove evolution because of the evidence of your senses. You believe it because you've been told it. And unless you have a Ph.D. in paleontology, don't tell me differently.

So, once again you have founded your argument on a logical error. It's not surprising. You have absolutely no understanding of logic whatsoever.


We don't need the "Entire fossil record" to show examples of evolutionary change. This is a creationist argument you're making here!


Of course we don't need the "entire fossil record" to show examples of evolutionary change. I never said we did. The fossils we have are all evidence of evolution. They are evidence that probably tends to make the theory of evolution more true.

You are once again making the mistake of equivocation. "Evidence" is not synonymous with "proof."

I said showing me the known fossil record would not prove evolution; you pretended I said showing me the known fossil record would not be evidence of evolution.

They are two different things.

Really. Just stop. Your stupidity is giving me a nosebleed.
 
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Premise1- To hallucinate you must have a brain by definition.


Prove this 100% true in all cases.

Prove that science will never discover that rocks somehow have brains in a way that current science cannot even conceive of and that seems ridiculous now.

Prove that aliens aren't using a technology to obscure the real nature of rocks.

Prove that a trickster god isn't right now laughing at us as he changes our brain chemistry to keep us from processing the fact that rocks have brains.

Prove that you are not in a hospital bed in a coma hallucinating every single thing about existence and that it bears no relationship to reality.

Prove that you are not an artificial intelligence just switched on two minutes ago and that every thought and memory you have before that time is just part of your programming and bears no relationship to reality.

Can't do it?

Didn't think so.
 
I submit that it's time for Dustin to tie a ribbon on this thing. Enough buildup already...let's have the soliloquy. Glaucon is losing interest.

C'mon Socrates....we want to climb the ladder of beauty by patching the holes in the leaky jar of our souls so we can turn from the shadows of the cave and bask in the warm glow of the sun of knowledge and thus behold the Eternal itself. Or something like that.

Bukkake us with the seminal emission of your wisdom. Show us the "big picture" that we are missing down here amongst the trees. Sh[rule8]t or get off the pot already.
Thou art nominated for thine contribution to cunning linguistics. ;)

In other words: see y'all at the TLA sweepstakes, July 1, 2007, bitches! :D I'm backing this horse from the Lacone stables.

DR
 
Prove that science will never discover that rocks somehow have brains in a way that current science cannot even conceive of and that seems ridiculous now.
Science doesn't need to, you've done the discovering for them by arguing with one such flint shard for the last few pages of this thread. ;)

DR
 
You gave examples of what you'd accept as proof for a God of different characteristics from the one I defined. Not what you would accept as proof for the God as I defined him.

Post #148 is your post. You stated what you would accept as evidence for a God given that... Except you never stated what you would accept for evidence of a God as I defined in my OP.

So you accept my proof for invisible people, then?

I beginning to realize that if I list and infinite number of instances of evidence for a god I will finally be able to prove to you that gods don't exist.

Do you think that if you keep repeating that I never stated what I would accept for evidence of your god it didn't happen?

If we tunneled to the center of the earth, and instead of finding a mantle core there was just a giant empty space with a small toad who could speak English and would describe to anyone who would listen how the great toad at the center of the Universe created all of the smaller toad and then sent them out to each create their own planets, I'd accept that.
 
Does a chunk of contaminated silicon count as a "rock"?
Only if the contamination is the result of a Bukkake with seminal emissions of wisdom. Otherwise, we find that sometimes a chunk of contaminated silicon is just a chunk of contaminated silicon, though other times it is half of Pamela Anderson's bust. :D

DR
 
Only if the contamination is the result of a Bukkake with seminal emissions of wisdom. Otherwise, we find that sometimes a chunk of contaminated silicon is just a chunk of contaminated silicon, though other times it is half of Pamela Anderson's bust. :D

DR


In the case of Pamela Anderson, silicone, not silicon.

No matter. Hmmm, show of hands: How many would accept Pamela Anderson's bust a proof there is a god?
 
In the case of Pamela Anderson, silicone, not silicon.

No matter. Hmmm, show of hands: How many would accept Pamela Anderson's bust a proof there is a god?

With this as your 666th post I think you just revealed yourself, evil one. Tempt me not, o' befouler of feminine virtue!

:D
 
No matter. Hmmm, show of hands: How many would accept Pamela Anderson's bust a proof there is a god?
Nope, proof of the existence of plastic surgeons.

Of course, her presurgery bust, waaaaaay back when, in Canada, when Playboy first "discovered the twin peaks of Mount Pamela Anderson (yes, I'd like to)" might be considered evidence of a loving God, or at least a breast loving god. ;)

DR
 
Thou art nominated for thine contribution to cunning linguistics. ;)

In other words: see y'all at the TLA sweepstakes, July 1, 2007, bitches! :D I'm backing this horse from the Lacone stables.

DR

Two DR nods in one month. You do me honour sir.
 
I asked this question in another thread and didn't get any real answers. Here's the question: What would you accept as PROOF of a God?

[SIZE=-1]Or do you simply "not know" what is proof but know what isn't?[/SIZE]


I certainly know that this is not it.
 
Bah, he still doesn't understand the difference between evidence and proof. What a waste of time! :(

Kudos to you chaps for posting an amusing last page though. Chuckling as I type. :)

Cheers,
TGHO
 
And would not plastic surgeons, the heralds of the divine silicone beef-up, be at the right hand of god?
Not as I see it. They are messing up Created beauty.

While I am not a fan of the plastic enhancement, I am impressed by the artistry of restorative and maxilary surgery. Good stuff.

DR
 
I actually expected this answer from you, Dustin. Not surprisingly, you've made another logical error. This time it's an argument from incredulity.

No it's not.

Cbish had said that if the stars lined up to spell something, that would be proof enough for him of god. You answered that sufficiently advanced aliens could have done it.

Yes.

Then you said that the fossil record proves evolution. When it was pointed out that sufficiently advanced aliens could have planted the fossils, you responded that your statement is true if we accept "that the world is basically as you perceive it."

No, I said that using Occam's razor aliens are less likely and without any reason to believe it was aliens, should be thrown out.

But what is it that you accept when you accept that the world is basically as you perceive it? I doubt that you personally have perceived many fossils in person. You have not studied them (and neither have I). You have accepted them as true because other people have said they are true and these people seem like a trustworthy sort. What they've said seems to make sense to you.

Why do they seem trustworthy? Why do their theories seem to make sense? Probably, the reason is that you are familiar with what they say and most people generally accept it as true.

How do you know the earth is round? You've never personally perceived the curvature of the earth. There are relatively few people who have been up the 100,000 feet necessary to do so. Are there 600,000 people on earth right now who have flown into space? Even that many would mean that 99.99% of living humans have never perceived that the earth is curved.

I have seen plenty of fossils myself, The reason I believe in them is because it would be much more likely that they are real than that they are fake considering how quickly fake fossils have been exposed in the past. Moreover, there are pictures and videos of the earths curvature, satellite data showing it's curvature, not to mention the earths shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. If the earth weren't spherical then it's shadow wouldn't be curved.

And what about the stars rearranging to spell out a message? Why is it that this does not prove the existence of god sufficiently for you? The reason is that you are not familiar with it. You are incredulous of it. If science textbooks talked about a message written in distant stars that could be seen by sufficiently large telescopes, if there were pictures of the message, if scientists all agreed that it was a genuine message from god, if all the people on the planet all agreed that this was real, if mankind agreed that this was sufficient proof of god - would it be sufficient for you then?

No. I don't believe in things only due to pictures, I do not believe in things only due to assertions either. If these scientists claimed that it was a "message from God" then I would demand proof for such an assertion. Just pictures and Just assertions would not cut it, without any actual evidence that it was 'from God' I would not believe in it. There would have to be pictures, scientific agreement, personal testimony as well as evidence suggesting it's from God. I believe the fossils I see in texts books are real because I know how they are formed and I know that there have been frauds in the past that have been exposed. I know that since there is as of yet no evidence of alien civilizations especially those that visited earth, especially those that planted fossils, ever, I would have much much less justification in believing it was aliens opposed to natural occurrences.

I know natural occurrences can cause fossils, I know how fossils form, I've found fossils myself, personally, I have fossils myself, personally, If it was claimed that God wrote a message in the stars then I would not know HOW it happened, I would have many reasons to believe otherwise(Just as justified).


See, you don't believe fossils prove evolution because of the evidence of your senses. You believe it because you've been told it. And unless you have a Ph.D. in paleontology, don't tell me differently.

1. I've seen plenty of real life fossils myself and own many.

2. I don't need a Ph.D. to see evolutionary change in the fossil record. It's very obvious and clear.

So, once again you have founded your argument on a logical error. It's not surprising. You have absolutely no understanding of logic whatsoever.

You've been sitting here arguing from authority and I have no understanding of logic? Hmm.




Of course we don't need the "entire fossil record" to show examples of evolutionary change. I never said we did. The fossils we have are all evidence of evolution. They are evidence that probably tends to make the theory of evolution more true.

This is what you said implying since we don't have the entire fossil record we can't prove anything...

In any case, no matter how much of the fossil record you show me, it would prove nothing about the fossil record because YOU DON'T HAVE THE ENTIRE FOSSIL RECORD. The entire fossil record is still mostly burried underground. We could find anything in there. We regularly do and are required to completely rejigger our theories to make room for new discoveries.

You are once again making the mistake of equivocation. "Evidence" is not synonymous with "proof."

Dozens of reputable dictionaries disagree.

I said showing me the known fossil record would not prove evolution; you pretended I said showing me the known fossil record would not be evidence of evolution.

You're backtracking on your implication. You said that we can't prove evolution because we don't have the ENTIRE fossil record, as if we could 'prove it' if we did have the entire thing.

They are two different things.

Really. Just stop. Your stupidity is giving me a nosebleed.


No, That nosebleed is from verbal the smackdown I've just now given you.
 
Prove this 100% true in all cases.

By definition of the word "hallucinate" it is.

Prove that science will never discover that rocks somehow have brains in a way that current science cannot even conceive of and that seems ridiculous now.

By definition rocks don't have brains. If they did they couldn't be defined as "rocks".
Rock-mineral matter of variable composition, consolidated or unconsolidated, assembled in masses or considerable quantities in nature, as by the action of heat or water.

Prove that aliens aren't using a technology to obscure the real nature of rocks.

There's no valid reason to believe they are. I'm more justified in believing they aren't.

Prove that a trickster god isn't right now laughing at us as he changes our brain chemistry to keep us from processing the fact that rocks have brains.

There's no valid reason to believe there is. I'm more justified in believing there isn't.


Prove that you are not in a hospital bed in a coma hallucinating every single thing about existence and that it bears no relationship to reality.

See above.

Prove that you are not an artificial intelligence just switched on two minutes ago and that every thought and memory you have before that time is just part of your programming and bears no relationship to reality.

Can't do it?

Didn't think so.


See above.
 
Bah, he still doesn't understand the difference between evidence and proof. What a waste of time! :(

Kudos to you chaps for posting an amusing last page though. Chuckling as I type. :)

Cheers,
TGHO


Are you blind or simply illiterate? I've posted several times showing the difference between "evidence" and "proof" and explaining their differences in different contexts. By definition from any reputable dictionary as well as any reputable scientific lexicon, Proof can be synonymous with evidence in some contexts and evidence synonymous with proof. According to any mathematical dictionaries or in different contexts "Proof" means showing something to necessarily be true given a set of specific axioms. I've explained this multiple times and it's the last time I'm going to do it. If you want to ignore what dozens of reputable dictionaries and scientific lexicons say then you're a waste of my time.
 

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