What would you accept as PROOF of a God?

[PixyMisa]

This is what you said implying since we don't have the entire fossil record we can't prove anything...

This is correct. In addition, if we did have the entire fossil record, we couldn't prove anything, not even that we had the entire fossil record.

Dozens of reputable dictionaries disagree.

Cite.

No, That nosebleed is from verbal the smackdown I've just now given you.

Where was that, Dustin?

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Are you blind or simply illiterate? I've posted several times showing the difference between "evidence" and "proof" and explaining their differences in different contexts. By definition from any reputable dictionary as well as any reputable scientific lexicon, Proof can be synonymous with evidence in some contexts and evidence synonymous with proof. According to any mathematical dictionaries or in different contexts "Proof" means showing something to necessarily be true given a set of specific axioms. I've explained this multiple times and it's the last time I'm going to do it. If you want to ignore what dozens of reputable dictionaries and scientific lexicons say then you're a waste of my time.

Tell me, Dustin, what science degrees do you hold, and from what universities did you obtain them from?

You are still confusing proof and evidence. You didn't even understand the links I posted - which were aimed at high school children. My 11 year old son knows more about "proof" and "evidence" than you!

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Proof-1. conclusive evidence: evidence or an argument that serves to establish a fact or the truth of something.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736546

Proof-evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/proof?view=uk

Proof-the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=proof

Proof-The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/65/P0596500.html


Proof-evidence.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/Proof

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

You are still confusing proof and evidence.

No I'm not. I've defined it clearly. See above for a last example. You're stubbornly holding onto one definition in one context for a word that has numerous definitions and can be used in numerous contexts. I won't discuss this anymore with you. I'm done. You're ignoring the facts because you're stubborn and you're wasting my time at that.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

No I'm not. I've defined it clearly. See above for a last example. You're stubbornly holding onto one definition in one context for a word that has numerous definitions and can be used in numerous contexts. I won't discuss this anymore with you. I'm done. You're ignoring the facts because you're stubborn and you're wasting my time at that.

Every single one of those links has as their first definition "the degree of evidence..."

See that?

The degree of evidence...



Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Every single one of those links has as their first definition "the degree of evidence..."

See that?

The degree of evidence...



Cheers,
TGHO

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/Proof

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/evidence


Now I'm done.

 

[PixyMisa]

(removed because it was counter-productive)

 

[The Great Hairy One]

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/Proof

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/evidence


Now I'm done.

Not quite, there's still a little bit of pink there in the middle. *Poke poke*

Please read the Notes sections on both those links. Just to make them absolutely clear, I'll quote them here:

"evidence (from Latin e- 'out' + videre 'to see') is information that helps form a conclusion; proof is factual information that verifies a conclusion"

Quite. Clearly. Different.



Cheers,
TGHO

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Oh, you were done long since, Dustin.

You sure? I think he's still a little bloody in the middle. You like your roast rare or medium?



Cheers,
TGHO

 

[PixyMisa]

You sure? I think he's still a little bloody in the middle. You like your roast rare or medium?

That's how it goes. I thought better of that remark, and now it's preserved for posterity.

Dustin wants the certainty of mathematics without the bother of rigorous definitions. Well, he can want anything he likes; he just can't have it.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

It's about time we got back on topic now.

 

[PixyMisa]

Righty-o.

First define your God in strict operational terms, such that there are specific measurements that can be made, both in principle and in practice, that will suffice to differentiate between a universe wherein the hypothesized being might exist and one in which it does not. The more such measurements you can specify, the better.

Then define proof, in any combination you choose of operational and statistical methodologies.

Then we'll be able to answer.

 

[Loss Leader]

Dusty, Dusty, Dusty. I told you proof and evidence were not synonyms. But you kept saying they were. You said:

Dozens of reputable dictionaries disagree.

Then, you quoted the dictionaries. And almost all of them said you were wrong. Did you even notice that the definitions did not say what you claimed they did? Let's go through them.

Proof-1. conclusive evidence: evidence or an argument that serves to establish a fact or the truth of something.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736546

See? Proof is not a synonym for evidence. Proof is sufficient evidence to be conclusive. Proof is sufficient evidence to establish a truth. A single piece of evidence may or may not be sufficient to prove something.

Prosecutors had evidence tha OJ killed his wife. They had her blood inside his car. But the jury did not find that single piece of evidence sufficient to prove he killed her. Proof is a degree of evidence according to your own source.

Proof-evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/proof?view=uk

Once again, only evidence that establishes something as true is proof. We have evidence that burning things makes them lighter. Is it sufficient to say that all things have phlogiston which is liberated during burning? Nope. We have not proven the existence of phlogiston.

Zero for two.

Proof-the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=proof

Yet again, it does not say that proof is evidence. It says that proof is an amount an type of evidence that forces the mind to accept something as true. I have evidence that your reading comprehension is abysmal. Does it prove that you're an idiot? No. It does not force someone to accept that you are an idiot. It is only one more puzzle piece that helps add to the overall picture that you are an idiot.

Proof-The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/65/P0596500.html

Proof is only evidence sufficient to force the conclusion of truthfulness, not just evidence in and of itself. We have evidence of evolution in the fossil record. Does that prove evolution? Of course not. There may be other explanations. Are they likely? Of course not. But that doesn't make them impossible. It doesn't force us to discard them. Lots of unlikely things happen every day. Marisa Tomei has an Oscar, for pity's sake. Anything can happen.

Zero for four.

Proof-evidence.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/Proof

Well, this source seems to disagree with the dictionaries and say that proof equals evidence. Let's just make sure it really does ...

Oh my Lord! You prevaricated! This is what your source really says:

Notes: evidence (from Latin e- 'out' + videre 'to see') is information that helps form a conclusion; proof is factual information that verifies a conclusion


Your source goes out of its way in a special note to state that evidence and proof are NOT true synonyms. Evidence helps form a conclusion, proof makes the conclusion true.

But your source, being a thesaurus, also equates proof with all sorts of things including: clue, scoop, trace and paper trail.

Perhaps you should not ask what we would accept as proof of God, but what we would accept as a paper trail.

Zero for five.

Conclusion: I believe the above constitutes evidence that you do not know how to read. It's not proof, though. If you have any evidence that you can read, you should present it now.

 

[D'rok]

Dusty, Dusty, Dusty. I told you proof and evidence were not synonyms. But you kept saying they were. You said:





Then, you quoted the dictionaries. And almost all of them said you were wrong. Did you even notice that the definitions did not say what you claimed they did? Let's go through them.





See? Proof is not a synonym for evidence. Proof is sufficient evidence to be conclusive. Proof is sufficient evidence to establish a truth. A single piece of evidence may or may not be sufficient to prove something.

Prosecutors had evidence tha OJ killed his wife. They had her blood inside his car. But the jury did not find that single piece of evidence sufficient to prove he killed her. Proof is a degree of evidence according to your own source.





Once again, only evidence that establishes something as true is proof. We have evidence that burning things makes them lighter. Is it sufficient to say that all things have phlogiston which is liberated during burning? Nope. We have not proven the existence of phlogiston.

Zero for two.





Yet again, it does not say that proof is evidence. It says that proof is an amount an type of evidence that forces the mind to accept something as true. I have evidence that your reading comprehension is abysmal. Does it prove that you're an idiot? No. It does not force someone to accept that you are an idiot. It is only one more puzzle piece that helps add to the overall picture that you are an idiot.





Proof is only evidence sufficient to force the conclusion of truthfulness, not just evidence in and of itself. We have evidence of evolution in the fossil record. Does that prove evolution? Of course not. There may be other explanations. Are they likely? Of course not. But that doesn't make them impossible. It doesn't force us to discard them. Lots of unlikely things happen every day. Marisa Tomei has an Oscar, for pity's sake. Anything can happen.

Zero for four.




Well, this source seems to disagree with the dictionaries and say that proof equals evidence. Let's just make sure it really does ...

Oh my Lord! You prevaricated! This is what your source really says:

Notes: evidence (from Latin e- 'out' + videre 'to see') is information that helps form a conclusion; proof is factual information that verifies a conclusion


Your source goes out of its way in a special note to state that evidence and proof are NOT true synonyms. Evidence helps form a conclusion, proof makes the conclusion true.

But your source, being a thesaurus, also equates proof with all sorts of things including: clue, scoop, trace and paper trail.

Perhaps you should not ask what we would accept as proof of God, but what we would accept as a paper trail.

Zero for five.

Conclusion: I believe the above constitutes evidence that you do not know how to read. It's not proof, though. If you have any evidence that you can read, you should present it now.

Ouch.

 

[Complexity]

 

[andyandy]

You're ignoring the facts because you're stubborn and you're wasting my time at that.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Dusty, Dusty, Dusty. I told you proof and evidence were not synonyms. But you kept saying they were. You said:





Then, you quoted the dictionaries. And almost all of them said you were wrong. Did you even notice that the definitions did not say what you claimed they did? Let's go through them.





See? Proof is not a synonym for evidence. Proof is sufficient evidence to be conclusive. Proof is sufficient evidence to establish a truth. A single piece of evidence may or may not be sufficient to prove something.

Prosecutors had evidence tha OJ killed his wife. They had her blood inside his car. But the jury did not find that single piece of evidence sufficient to prove he killed her. Proof is a degree of evidence according to your own source.





Once again, only evidence that establishes something as true is proof. We have evidence that burning things makes them lighter. Is it sufficient to say that all things have phlogiston which is liberated during burning? Nope. We have not proven the existence of phlogiston.

Zero for two.





Yet again, it does not say that proof is evidence. It says that proof is an amount an type of evidence that forces the mind to accept something as true. I have evidence that your reading comprehension is abysmal. Does it prove that you're an idiot? No. It does not force someone to accept that you are an idiot. It is only one more puzzle piece that helps add to the overall picture that you are an idiot.





Proof is only evidence sufficient to force the conclusion of truthfulness, not just evidence in and of itself. We have evidence of evolution in the fossil record. Does that prove evolution? Of course not. There may be other explanations. Are they likely? Of course not. But that doesn't make them impossible. It doesn't force us to discard them. Lots of unlikely things happen every day. Marisa Tomei has an Oscar, for pity's sake. Anything can happen.

Zero for four.




Well, this source seems to disagree with the dictionaries and say that proof equals evidence. Let's just make sure it really does ...

Oh my Lord! You prevaricated! This is what your source really says:

Notes: evidence (from Latin e- 'out' + videre 'to see') is information that helps form a conclusion; proof is factual information that verifies a conclusion


Your source goes out of its way in a special note to state that evidence and proof are NOT true synonyms. Evidence helps form a conclusion, proof makes the conclusion true.

But your source, being a thesaurus, also equates proof with all sorts of things including: clue, scoop, trace and paper trail.

Perhaps you should not ask what we would accept as proof of God, but what we would accept as a paper trail.

Zero for five.

Conclusion: I believe the above constitutes evidence that you do not know how to read. It's not proof, though. If you have any evidence that you can read, you should present it now.

You're arguing that "Sufficient evidence" and simply "evidence" aren't the same thing. Who defines what "Sufficient" means? It's totally relative to who is deciding what is sufficient or not. Hardly any evidence could be sufficient enough for some people.

 

[PixyMisa]

You're arguing that "Sufficient evidence" and simply "evidence" aren't the same thing. Who defines what "Sufficient" means? It's totally relative to who is deciding what is sufficient or not. Hardly any evidence could be sufficient enough for some people.

Well, when you have any evidence, let us know.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Well, when you have any evidence, let us know.

Evidence for what? His argument was that "Proof" and "Evidence" aren't the same because the definition of "Proof" says "sufficient evidence" but doesn't actually define what "sufficient" is meaning that "sufficient" could mean the smallest amount of evidence which proves my point that Proof=Evidence.

 

[D'rok]

Evidence for what? His argument was that "Proof" and "Evidence" aren't the same because the definition of "Proof" says "sufficient evidence" but doesn't actually define what "sufficient" is meaning that "sufficient" could mean the smallest amount of evidence which proves my point that Proof=Evidence.

Here's a nice concise definition of logical proof:
a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is true something else necessarily follows from it
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/logical+proof

This, and only this, is the definition of "proof" in the context of your argument, and in this context it is not synonymous with evidence in any way.