What would a designed universe look like?

[Dunstan]

I was asking for someone who is making the claim that this is not what a designed universe would look like for what a designed should look like. I'm not the one who is claiming this is one or the other for this OP. But someone making that claim must have an idea of what they mean the same way someone making the opposite claim should have an idea of what they mean.

So one person wrote something in another thread, and rather than asking him or her to clarify or explain the statement there, you started a whole new thread, without quoting the previous poster or indicating the context?

As I recall, you did something similar in your thread about "Belief Systems."

You seem to assume that any statement that one member makes must be a generally shared sentiment around here. I realize that as a Christian, you feel like a beseiged minority in here, but please try to remember that not all of us non-Christians, or even all of us JREF-posting atheists, think alike. Given that you have expressed annoyance in the past at people assuming that you must believe exactly what some other Christians do, surely you can see the problem there?

It doesn't help that, within 40 minutes of your original post, you're asking "So -- anyone" as if you're owed an answer, or have somehow managed to stump the board. It indicates that you're more interested in playing "gotcha" than in getting an answer to your question, which I think is why you're encountering hostility.

I'll take you at your word that you're really just honestly interested in getting answers to your question. If that's the case, I would suggest that, the next time you want to discuss a single sentence in a post by Forum Member X, and you really think it merits its own thread, please do the following:

1) Quote, rather than paraphrase or retype, the original statement.
2) Include in your original post as much of the context as you reasonably can, and provide a link to the post in question.
3) PM the Forum Member X who wrote it, or post a reply in the prior thread with a link to your new thread.
4) Try to refrain from commenting on the lack of replies or lack of, in your opinion, substantive replies.

Again, these are just my suggestions. You can carry on as you've been doing if you please, but it doesn't seem to be getting you the answers you say you want.

 

[Hindmost]

Barbecued steaks, Fetticini Alfredo, chocolate souffles, Ice Cream and Hollandaise sauce would be health food. (and other culinary delights)

glenn

 

[bokonon]

If we file a class action suit, we are certain to win since all of the best lawyers are in hell and hence are forever isolated from the defendant.

Maybe you can try to get "class action" status on this one:

http://www.ketv.com/news/14133442/detail.html

Chambers lawsuit, which was filed on Friday in Douglas County Court, seeks a permanent injunction ordering God to cease certain harmful activities and the making of terroristic threats.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

You seem to assume that any statement that one member makes must be a generally shared sentiment around here. I realize that as a Christian, you feel like a beseiged minority in here, but please try to remember that not all of us non-Christians, or even all of us JREF-posting atheists, think alike. Given that you have expressed annoyance in the past at people assuming that you must believe exactly what some other Christians do, surely you can see the problem there?

To be fair to ACS, the "our universe doesn't look designed" argument is one I hear rather frequently. It's far from one person's isolated stance.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

So one person wrote something in another thread, and rather than asking him or her to clarify or explain the statement there, you started a whole new thread, without quoting the previous poster or indicating the context?

As I recall, you did something similar in your thread about "Belief Systems."

You seem to assume that any statement that one member makes must be a generally shared sentiment around here.

No I don't. I think atheism is simply a lack of belief in God.

I also figure if I post a question that doesn't apply to them they'll ignore it instead of complaining about what they assume is my assumption they must believe it too.

I realize that as a Christian, you feel like a beseiged minority in here, but please try to remember that not all of us non-Christians, or even all of us JREF-posting atheists, think alike. Given that you have expressed annoyance in the past at people assuming that you must believe exactly what some other Christians do, surely you can see the problem there?

Not really - since I don't assume any of you believe all the same way simply because you have a certain lack of belief in common.

It doesn't help that, within 40 minutes of your original post, you're asking "So -- anyone" as if you're owed an answer, or have somehow managed to stump the board. It indicates that you're more interested in playing "gotcha" than in getting an answer to your question, which I think is why you're encountering hostility.

Or it indicates that I can play along in the same silly manner as people posting pictures of sandwhiches or single word answers like "pink". Maybe a smiley face would have worked? Probably not though - since last time in this thread I included it I was told it was a "Smirk Emoticon".

I'll take you at your word that you're really just honestly interested in getting answers to your question. If that's the case, I would suggest that, the next time you want to discuss a single sentence in a post by Forum Member X, and you really think it merits its own thread, please do the following:

1) Quote, rather than paraphrase or retype, the original statement.
2) Include in your original post as much of the context as you reasonably can, and provide a link to the post in question.
3) PM the Forum Member X who wrote it, or post a reply in the prior thread with a link to your new thread.

I'll keep those in mind.

4) Try to refrain from commenting on the lack of replies or lack of, in your opinion, substantive replies.

I'll reply in the same manner as people reply to me. If it's a joke to everyone - then I'll treat it like a joke. If it's serious - I'll reply in kind.

Again, these are just my suggestions. You can carry on as you've been doing if you please, but it doesn't seem to be getting you the answers you say you want.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[X]

If I designed a universe, I jiggle physics to make instantaneous long-distance travel possible, and every star would have planets (which would be square) filled with pretty women. Also, laser guns would shoot at subsonic to sonic speeds.

And I'd be rich.

 

[KingMerv00]

What about my post ACS? It was a joke but it had a serious point.

We expect more from humans than we do from a being that has infinitely more power and knowledge.

Also, it isn't a "smirk". Jeez.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

A "Christian" "Skeptic," take my words out of your signature. When you asked if you could quote me for you book, I said no.

I don't want you quoting me out of context at all. You don't even have the decency to include a link to where I said that about you.

 

[GeeMack]

I did and then I thought - it would be cool to see what many of the other people who held similar opinions think.

And when people asked you to clarify your question, you got all smarmy and indignant. As other people have mentioned, you don't have any interest in a discussion. You want to take from this group have no desire to share. For the most part you've shown contempt for those who have made an effort to contribute. You see, you are a selfish ingrate.

Dude, what's your friggin' problem?

Did I strike some sort of raw nerve or something?

No, I actually find it somewhat entertaining watching you weasel and slither. I'll admit I held a shred of hope that eventually you'd show a tiny bit of honesty, and it's somewhat frustrating to see you continually demonstrate that you just don't have it in you. But I do understand you're just lyin' for Jesus and all that.

You'd think this question was really that tough. Either you have an opinion or you don't. Feel free to share if you want.

Your willful ignorance notwithstanding, I have shared my opinion.

I'm not here to tell you you're wrong about your thoughts on this. I'm definitely not going to tell you what I think - because I think that since you think I'm arrogant, willfully ignorant, dishonest and lack any courage you don't actually really care what I think.

I asked a legitimate, pertinent question early in the thread. I repeated it in follow up post. Several others asked essentially the same thing. Pretty much what we wanted was to develop some context from which to build a more positive discussion. You shirked your responsibility to advance the conversation. You've got a lot of nerve trying to push your failure off onto anyone else.

So you have it exactly backwards, ACS. You're not going to tell me or anyone else what you think because you don't have the spine to do it. Your refusal to involve yourself in a discussion in an honest and productive way, your flippant replies to the other posters, is the evidence of your arrogance, self righteousness, and ignorance.

 

[I Ratant]

...
If we file a class action suit, we are certain to win since all of the best lawyers are in hell and hence are forever isolated from the defendant.

.
But so are all the bad ones! (presuming there's a discernible difference.)
We'd probably the crack prosecutors for the OJ murder trial.
Hey.. tried before a jury of His peers... hmm...
Bunyil,Loki, Ares/Mars, Maui., Morpheus, Xolotol.. Those guys would love to be dusted off and get some favorable ink at last!

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

What about my post ACS? It was a joke but it had a serious point.

We expect more from humans than we do from a being that has infinitely more power and knowledge.

Also, it isn't a "smirk". Jeez.

I didn't take your post as just a joke. Thanks for your replies. Sorry my reply to you wasn't clear about what exactly I was responding to and how lightly I was responding.

 

[KingMerv00]

.
But so are all the bad ones! (presuming there's a discernible difference.)

God couldn't find an impartial lawyer. They've all been harmed by the universe.

 

[KingMerv00]

I didn't take your post as just a joke. Thanks for your replies. Sorry my reply to you wasn't clear about what exactly I was responding to and how lightly I was responding.

Ok then. Apology accepted.

Onto the issue at hand?

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

So you have it exactly backwards, ACS. You're not going to tell me or anyone else what you think because you don't have the spine to do it. Your refusal to involve yourself in a discussion in an honest and productive way, your flippant replies to the other posters, is the evidence of your arrogance, self righteousness, and ignorance.

Oh what the heck - since this is probably one of the few last posts for a while for me. Let's derail this thread from the OP question.

My position: I believe the universe was created. I've never said it was designed in any manner that some here are taking it or Intelligent Design people seem to be taking it.

But I have heard lots of people use that argument against there being a God - including the most recent - which led to this thread. I have no further definition of "DESIGN" for this topic since I never use that term with God or creation.

Designed? I'm not even sure what that would mean for a God - who am I to judge? Some of your ideas are interesting though - thanks. I'll think on them. I haven't read any Intelligent Design arguments (other than some Fine Tuning observations) so I'm not sure what they are seeing. Maybe I'll look into them sometime.

 

[godofpie]

Fluffernutter - breakfast, lunch and dinner

You had me at Fluff. You are my new god.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I repeat:

A "Christian" "Skeptic," take my words out of your signature. When you asked if you could quote me for you book, I said no.

I don't want you quoting me out of context at all. You don't even have the decency to include a link to where I said that about you.

 

[godofpie]

Most importantly I think... What IS a universe? :-X

 

[Mobyseven]

OK - I looked over all the previous replies.
I was obviously answering in context to all the above replies and yours. Yours was one of the more specific (and serious) but also rather general. Yours was apparently talking about natural disasters.

My comments were meant towards your analogy. Which is why that's all I quoted. You're judging a loom maker by the rugs the loom is making and saying - this loom's end result shows the loom maker to be - fill in the negative adjective. There's alot of parts in this loom. And, unfortunately, some have Free Will to compound the problems. That's the extent of any point I had.

The whole moral of the Fall of Man in the Genesis is about Man not cooperating with God - and thus apparently causing a negative ripple effect outwards into ALL creation. You don't have to believe it to know what it's saying.

Kindly explain how, if free will were to exist, it would have an effect on the laws governing natural disasters or the fundamental forces that are sending the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies to meet in a not so nice fashion?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Kindly explain how, if free will were to exist, it would have an effect on the laws governing natural disasters or the fundamental forces that are sending the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies to meet in a not so nice fashion?

That's easy. A "Christian" "Skeptic's" creator god has mysterious ways, and is not for us to understand.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Since apparently the question is so vague - here's another try:

In a different thread someone said that the universe does not show signs of being a designed universe. SO - if you have that same opinion - what would a designed universe look like? And since you have that opinion you apparently know what "designed" in this context means to you. So answer accordingly.

I don't see your problem here.
I can say that a car doesn't show signs of being propelled by the breath of Zeus without knowing what a such a car would look like, can't I? Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.