What would a designed universe look like?

[bokonon]

For those who didn't get it, the point of this argument is just to show that a theory involving infinitely many universes might be less complicated than a theory involving just one. It's certainly not an attempt to prove that this idea is right.

My basic problem with "infinite universes" is that knowledge of any alternatives is presumably never going to be accessible from within this universe, so it's essentially equivalent to a pointless game of "let's pretend."

I suppose if information from alternate universes ever could be accessible from this one, belief in the reality of such things would probably be a necessary first step, so I don't want to discourage anyone from following that light if they think it's promising. At one time, radio waves were unimagined too. Maybe one day all the strange phenomena we observe at the quantum scale will become intuitively understandable as one facet of a multiverse tapestry. Maybe we'll solve our energy problems by sucking it out of an alternate universe, or dump our toxic waste in one.

Right now, though, the speculation about such things seems to me like a colossal waste of time.

 

[andyandy]

I think it does fare badly. You'll need to explain where that alien intelligence comes from.

At first glance it might seem that a theory involving an infinite number of universes must be absurdly complicated compared to the alternative, but as Max Tegmark has pointed out, this isn't necessarily so. He used a pretty simple argument to make his point. Consider the set of rational numbers. It's not difficult to write a computer program that generates all the rational numbers, one at a time. The program will never finish of course, but that's not the point. The point is that the program has a finite size and is still "contains" all the rational numbers. But if you want to specify just one rational number, there's no upper bound on the amount of information you might need. For example, if p and q are large prime numbers, the shortest way to specify p/q is to specify p and q separately, but p and q can be arbitrarily large since there are infinitely many prime numbers.

For those who didn't get it, the point of this argument is just to show that a theory involving infinitely many universes might be less complicated than a theory involving just one. It's certainly not an attempt to prove that this idea is right.

Given the observational data says "at least one universe", why would "two universes" fare better than "many universes' with reference to Occam?

Why would "exactly one universe" fare better with reference to Occam?

No, "many universes", "two universes" and "exactly one universe" are equal with respect to parsimony.

hmmmm.... I can appreciate that people might disagree with the application of occam's razor. The trouble is that we are left with a pretty subjective judgement with little in the way of facts to root our judgement in....

In terms of complexity, the need to invoke an infinite number of universes seems to introduce much greater complexity to the explanation of the cosmic origin than just two universes with one alien intelligence. But that's just my feeling, and I do quite like the Tegemark example in which an overall multi-verse system would decrease complexity.....

In short, I am happy to accept that a multi-verse theory might be the simplest explanation, but would argue that a dual universe/single designer could also be regarded under different considerations as the most simple.

........ or in even shorter, I don't really know

 

[Gate2501]

And you call yourself a gamer? I am shocked, just shocked, I tell you!

See? That's me, shocked.

What is the world coming to when supposed rock music lovers have no clue who The Beatles are, and computer game afficianados have no idea who's responsible for great hulking chunks of their world?

Excuse me, I have to go away and weep now, for the future.

Bah...

I am 28 years old, and have been gaming my entire life. I had a Franklin Apple2e before NES came out, and have always had a gaming PC and just about every console available.

Not knowing who a Science Fiction author is does not disqualify me!

Most of the books that I have read in my life are non-fiction, or horror.

I also was playing pen and paper role playing games since I was around 9 years old (with a very weak grasp on them), but nowadays I play MMORPGs due to the ease of having a server act as my DM, and the endless stream of players to kill or adventure with.

I AM A NERD GOD ******!

I am just not as old as a lot of you, and not very well cultured outside of video games and horror novels/movies.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I can see where you're coming from, but it sounds awfully uhhh...boring... to me. Are you sure you want to do that? No challenges, no variety, no big waves to clean up the beach? Even in Camelot it was allowed to rain after sundown, I hear.

There are lots of challenges to life even without rape, tsunamis, etc.

I've never been raped, hit by a mudslide, had my house destroyed by a bomber, or drowned by a tidal wave. My life still hasn't been boring.

 

[Hindmost]

That's all fine if you have unlimited resources allocated to this particular design. What if, with your infinite power, your manager wants you to create an infinite number of universes? Maybe then you'll want to make cost effective universes.

manager...what manager?

I can see where you're coming from, but it sounds awfully uhhh...boring... to me. Are you sure you want to do that? No challenges, no variety, no big waves to clean up the beach? Even in Camelot it was allowed to rain after sundown, I hear.

Well, to each his paradise, I suppose. Would you use a random number generator in it? (Oops - didn't mean to start another of those discussions here.)

boring isn't even in the dictionary...remember, ice cream isn't fattening in my universe.

One can still race sports cars, go skiing....have really great--guilt free-- sex....

glenn

 

[Robin]

I can see where you're coming from, but it sounds awfully uhhh...boring... to me. Are you sure you want to do that? No challenges, no variety, no big waves to clean up the beach?

Ah, I see. So when you buy a car, you want the brakes to suddenly fail at random intervals, or for a wheel to occasionally just fall off so that you could get a bit of variety and challenge? Are you sure you want to do that?

Your idea of a well designed car would be one that suffered from catastrophic and potentially fatal failures from time to time?

You think that dying of cancer or being killed by a tsunami is exciting and challenging and nothing else could possibly be?

Well, to each his Paradise.

 

[H'ethetheth]

manager...what manager?

You think the designer is at the top of the hierarchy there? It doesn't work like that here, so why would it work like that out there, wherever 'there' is.

 

[Robin]

You think the designer is at the top of the hierarchy there? It doesn't work like that here, so why would it work like that out there, wherever 'there' is.

And our God is the new guy - the one they send out to buy a left-handed screwdriver, or polka-dot paint.

 

[dogjones]

My design would be similar to yours, but I wouldn't have the larger planets at all. Just put a bunch of smaller planets in the Goldilocks zone. Give each one a large stabilizing moon. Make the continents regular concentric rings that circle the globe for some span of latitudes. No rain or rain clouds, fresh-water oceans. All life is capable of photosynthesis, so none has to kill to eat. All injuries are reversible, as the "lizard growing a new tail" gene is universal. Death still exists, but it's really just a re-boot -- when you're tired of living, or feel you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish, you quietly evaporate, and a tiny baby appears in your place, starting fresh, knowing nothing. Gentle breezes, no hurricanes or tornadoes. No earthquakes.

And the sun would be hot-swappable.

Are you seriously suggesting a universe with no Mickey D's?

You're SICK.

 

[Beerina]

Are you seriously suggesting a universe with no Mickey D's?

You're SICK.

Well, you do live in a universe with tens of thousands of Mickey D's.


However, you unfortunately live in a universe without any Fanny Q's, which is even better. But you'll never know.

Sucks 2BU!

 

[dogjones]

Fanny Q's - Photons, Folks and Fun.

 

[dogjones]

Waiter to the Head-Emitter: "Hey! The guy on table 15 says his order is wrong. He asked for 700nm."

Head-Emitter to the Sous-Emitters: "Hear that boys?"

Sous-Emitters: [howls of derision].

Head-Emitter to the waiter: "You tell that moron that this is a classy joint." [with rising anger] "He wants his Red burnt to a crisp at 700nm, tell him to go to Fanny Q's. Here, we serve 640nm, max. MAX! Got that?" [turns back to his LEDs, muttering disgustedly].

 

[Hindmost]

You think the designer is at the top of the hierarchy there? It doesn't work like that here, so why would it work like that out there, wherever 'there' is.

I've designed a universe without managers....and mosquitoes...since they are soooooooooooo similar.

glenn