What we mean when we talk about racism

[psionl0]

Strip out the sarcasm, and yes, she picked up that type of insult somewhere. Either from friends and family, and/or the football crowd.

That is trivially true. She obviously picked up the word from somewhere but we don't know where. There is no evidence that anybody (inside or outside the stadium) coached her to use the word and there is no evidence that anybody else in the crowd was also using the word.

Hurling insults at opposing players is (or was) common practice at AFL games. Sometimes the players have been known to do it themselves in an attempt to make their opponent angry and put them off their game. Most AFL players know better than to let it get under their skin and affect their game.

Little did anybody know that this time, Goodes would make a court case out of it instead.

 

[jimbob]

You are both describing a scenario that exists only in your own minds. This was just one girl who yelled out "ape" - not a whole crowd.

And that incident is totally separate from the crowd booing which was the only thing that they got labeled "racist" for. It was not booing and yelling racist remarks.

Not to mention that "ape" is not in the same category as the N word or "boy" which are well known terms of racial abuse. Prior to this incident, relatively few people would have known that Aboriginals were more sensitive about the word "ape" than they would have been about other abusive words.

JoeMorgue seems to have called it, except that the cartoonishly racist part obviously involves more than making cartoonishly stereotypical racist chants.
From the first page of this thread with my highlighting:

I'm actually glad you started this topic. This has been an ancillary topic in multiple discussions that leads to a lot of people accidentally (and on purpose I time I have a sneaking suspicion) talking around each other.

Right now there are (vastly over simplifying this) multiple versions of the word "racism" being used in the popular discourse.

- Racism meaning "personal racism" as in "I don't like person X because they are of race Y." I don't like this person because he's this.

- Racism meaning "personal racism plus power or action" as in "I don't like person X because they are of race Y and I'm in a position of power/influence/authority/etc to actually affect them on a level beyond direct 1:1 encounters." This is where the "You can't be racist against white people" version of racism comes in.

- Racism meaning "You aren't racist, but you aren't NOT racist enough and tolerating racism is a form of racism"

To what degree any of those is the "correct" version is a job for the pedants, but the fact that some much discussion about racism shifts between those definitions, often within the same person or argument, is not doing anyone any favors.

And those are just the biggies that are being argued... somewhat honestly. Add in nonsense like the "It's not racism because it's not cartoonishly over the top racism" or "talking about racism makes you the racist" and it gets even worse.

LOL....I have seen it argued in this very forum, presumably with a straight face, that it's perfectly normal for non-racist white people to hurl racial slurs like the n-word at black people they are angry with.

Yeah the number of people who think racism is justified if you're legit angry at a minority is bothersome.

Indeed

That is trivially true. She obviously picked up the word from somewhere but we don't know where. There is no evidence that anybody (inside or outside the stadium) coached her to use the word and there is no evidence that anybody else in the crowd was also using the word.

Hurling insults at opposing players is (or was) common practice at AFL games. Sometimes the players have been known to do it themselves in an attempt to make their opponent angry and put them off their game. Most AFL players know better than to let it get under their skin and affect their game.

Little did anybody know that this time, Goodes would make a court case out of it instead.

Make up your mind.

If she learned to make racist insults from her family and friends, then how does that make her intent not racially motivated?

If she learned to make that particular racist insult at that particular player from the football crowd, she might (implausibly) have not been aware of the racist connotations but it would mean that the crowd had been using racist chants at Goodes.

I really see why you think that either of those are fairy stories. And I'm not the one rubbishing something that you yourself have accepted is trivially true.

 

[jimbob]

That is trivially true. She obviously picked up the word from somewhere but we don't know where. There is no evidence that anybody (inside or outside the stadium) coached her to use the word and there is no evidence that anybody else in the crowd was also using the word.

Hurling insults at opposing players is (or was) common practice at AFL games. Sometimes the players have been known to do it themselves in an attempt to make their opponent angry and put them off their game. Most AFL players know better than to let it get under their skin and affect their game.

Little did anybody know that this time, Goodes would make a court case out of it instead.

The highlighted is attacking a position that exists only in your head.

Racism generally doesn't involve "coaching" - you don't get mothers taking their kids down the park and telling them "Suzie, call that nice man an ape, there's a good little Klansgirl"

Kids learn attitudes by imitation - if they see their parents and peers making racist remarks, they'll grow up thinking that's normal. They might change their minds when they grow up, but the racism they learned will be from their family and friends - especially people they look up to.


There is a difference between racist insults and many others. They tap into a vein of dehumanising minorities, and the history of state-sponsored genocide* in the case of Australia**. Who would have thought that someone of Aboriginal descent would have been so easily upset about such vilification that he singled out someone he noticed doing that and complained about it?


*not hyperbole

**Chosen only because this is where this incident happened.

 

[Shepherd]

Indeed. Children can often ape their parents' behavior. Monkey see. Monkey do.

 

[psionl0]

If she learned to make racist insults from her family and friends, then how does that make her intent not racially motivated?

If she learned to make that particular racist insult at that particular player from the football crowd, she might (implausibly) have not been aware of the racist connotations but it would mean that the crowd had been using racist chants at Goodes.

We don't know that either of these scenarios are the case. We don't even know if she was aware that this particular word was not just a general insult or that it would be guaranteed to make Aboriginals howling mad.

You are still making things up and acting as if they were "facts". Get some evidence!

 

[wareyin]

We don't know that either of these scenarios are the case. We don't even know if she was aware that this particular word was not just a general insult or that it would be guaranteed to make Aboriginals howling mad.

You are still making things up and acting as if they were "facts". Get some evidence!

We actually know they are very likely, however. This is based on silly things like the obvious fact that people don't yell random words at sporting events. Children do yell things that those around them say or yell in those situations. Also, the terms "ape" and "monkey" are used here in the US as insults against black people. They are not unknown, unique, or strictly insults against Aboriginals. Your pretense that it's the fault of the one being insulted for being too sensitive is just a fairy tale that has no evidence for it and plenty against it.

 

[jimbob]

If she learned to make racist insults from her family and friends, then how does that make her intent not racially motivated?

If she learned to make that particular racist insult at that particular player from the football crowd, she might (implausibly) have not been aware of the racist connotations but it would mean that the crowd had been using racist chants at Goodes.

We don't know that either of these scenarios are the case. We don't even know if she was aware that this particular word was not just a general insult or that it would be guaranteed to make Aboriginals howling mad.

You are still making things up and acting as if they were "facts". Get some evidence!

True - however I am struggling to think up any other remotely plausible scenarios. As you seem to take issue with these, what are your alternative scenarios?

So far luchog has managed a more plausible idea, and that was *definitely* sarcastic:

Have to agree. I know when I'm out at a match with me mates, we always yell out random words at the opposing team, shows them we mean business. Like last weekend, when our chants of "Tardigrade! Tardigrade! Tardigrade!" had them all fired up, let me tell ya.

Of course, there was that time that Jimmy nearly started a set to what with calling their big, simian-looking goalie a Pre-Raphaelite to his face, but we were able to calm the ape-man down by explaining that Jimmy wasn't too sure what the word meant, only that it sounded suitably insulting, and we all had a good chuckle afterwards.

No it goddamn it isn't.

"I'm not racist I'm just yelling words I don't know the meaning of at this minority person because everybody else around me is" is not where we're gonna land.

I think this is where at least one poster wants it to land.

 

[Minoosh]

A better question would be: 'Are you a real person? Do you actually exist or are you entirely imaginary, made up by somebody to prove some kind of point?'

I'm not trying to prove any point, just proposing a counterexample.

I would agree that support for Trump indicates a tolerance of racism - but I think there are people who support him in spite of his appeal to racists and not because of it. I don't know if all of them are irredeemable. A good chunk, sure, but I hate to think it's 40 percent of the country. It may be. I don't know. That's why I asked the question.

 

[jimbob]

I'm not trying to prove any point, just proposing a counterexample.

I would agree that support for Trump indicates a tolerance of racism - but I think there are people who support him in spite of his appeal to racists and not because of it. I don't know if all of them are irredeemable. A good chunk, sure, but I hate to think it's 40 percent of the country. It may be. I don't know. That's why I asked the question.

By now, you have to be pretty comfortable with racists. Or *really* hate Liberals, so yes pretty irredeemable.

 

[Minoosh]

By now, you have to be pretty comfortable with racists. Or *really* hate Liberals, so yes pretty irredeemable.

You're probably right, but I hope some of the people telling pollsters they stand behind Trump are not going to want 4 more years of this by the time November 2020 rolls around.

 

[jimbob]

You're probably right, but I hope some of the people telling pollsters they stand behind Trump are not going to want 4 more years of this by the time November 2020 rolls around.

I suspect his racism is a feature not a bug for most remaining Republican supporters, but his declining faculties and incompetence are probably not going to enthuse them.

 

[Minoosh]

I suspect his racism is a feature not a bug for most remaining Republican supporters, but his declining faculties and incompetence are probably not going to enthuse them.

And that's the bigger concern to me. If people want to be racist ******** that's their right. I don't know if having it out in the open is better or worse for the country. But even apart from the racism Trump is a disaster, a great tool for the autocrats who are weaponizing democracy against itself and undermining U.S. interests everywhere. And he thinks he's playing in their league. Pathetic.

 

[luchog]

I think this is where at least one poster wants it to land.

Well, no, he's already made it clear that he doesn't believe that the crowd was yelling racist insults either.

So he denies that the girl learned the racist insult from her parents, etc, then he denies she learned it from a racist crowd, so that only leaves her shouting out some totally random word for totally random reasons that just coincidentally happens to be a racist insult, which he also hasn't admitted it is.

Occam's razor should pretty well shred that odd little bit of tortured logic, but I doubt it will do more than scratch the huge wall of disingenuous feigned ignorance it sits on.

 

[The Norseman]

Well, no, he's already made it clear that he doesn't believe that the crowd was yelling racist insults either.

So he denies that the girl learned the racist insult from her parents, etc, then he denies she learned it from a racist crowd, so that only leaves her shouting out some totally random word for totally random reasons that just coincidentally happens to be a racist insult, which he also hasn't admitted it is.

Occam's razor should pretty well shred that odd little bit of tortured logic, but I doubt it will do more than scratch the huge wall of disingenuous feigned ignorance it sits on.

This, as well as pretty successfully running interference for theprestige who originally posted the laughable statement in the first place.

Admittedly, it's been quite instructive of what the OP is about; for some racism is a figment of our collective imaginations where everyone who is called a racist really isn't one and that thousands and thousands of people who attend football games never, ever shout racial epithets and that any player POC who hears racial slurs are just making it up. Much ado about nothing!

In this case, the girl really didn't shout "ape" but merely shouted "GRAPE!" Probably because she thought they were wearing purple jerseys or something. Perfectly innocent.

 

[Thermal]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the N-word is used in Pulp Fiction by the white characters, which is problematic for your entire argument.

Wow, sure sounds devastating. Maybe you could throw in a few nouns and verbs to give some content here?

Your claims to have unique insight into black culture is just a slightly more sophisticated version of the Some of My Best Friends Are Black argument, and of course reeks of the typical internet bragging used by people trying to claim authority on a subject with dubious anecdotal evidence.

I...uh...didnt mention black culture or my unique insights, which I don't have anyway. Would you mind taking another swing at that 'content' thing with some words again?

 

[psionl0]

We actually know they are very likely, however.

No we don't. Prove it.

Well, no, he's already made it clear that he doesn't believe that the crowd was yelling racist insults either.

Already discussed. Not reported as such and no evidence.

So he denies that the girl learned the racist insult from her parents, etc, then he denies she learned it from a racist crowd, so that only leaves her shouting out some totally random word for totally random reasons that just coincidentally happens to be a racist insult, which he also hasn't admitted it is.

How can everybody be so stupid? Where does anybody learn things? Friends, media (especially social media), schools, etc. There are so many places that one could learn things it would normally be impossible to identify any one source as being solely responsible for what she learned.

But NO. That sounds too boring for a racism story. So let's all say that her evil racist parents taught her this by example and keep repeating it until everybody believes that it is an undeniable fact.

 

[johnny karate]

Wow, sure sounds devastating. Maybe you could throw in a few nouns and verbs to give some content here?

Watch the scene in which Lance sells Vincent heroin and then come back and tell us again how Pulp Fiction is a cultural touchstone for non-racist usage of the n-word.

I...uh...didnt mention black culture or my unique insights, which I don't have anyway. Would you mind taking another swing at that 'content' thing with some words again?

You lectured another poster from a position of feigned authority about the appropriate use of the n-word.

That is quite literally you claiming unique insight into black culture.

 

[smartcooky]

We don't know that either of these scenarios are the case. We don't even know if she was aware that this particular word was not just a general insult or that it would be guaranteed to make Aboriginals howling mad.
You are still making things up and acting as if they were "facts". Get some evidence!

Utter tripe, and you know it!

Any Australian who claims not to know that calling an Aboriginal person an "ape" is a racist taunt has either been closeted in a convent or living under a flat stone for their entire life. You have taken a serious hit to your credibility by claiming it!

 

[psionl0]

Utter tripe, and you know it!

Any Australian who claims not to know that calling an Aboriginal person an "ape" is a racist taunt has either been closeted in a convent or living under a flat stone for their entire life. You have taken a serious hit to your credibility by claiming it!

Sure. You knew that this particular word was far more offensive than any other racist word since well before 2014.

 

[smartcooky]

Sure. You knew that this particular word was far more offensive than any other racist word since well before 2014.

Absolutely I did. I've known "Ape" and "Monkey" and "Chimp" to be pejorative words for brown-skinned people since my teens. The original of the "ape" insult goes back to Lamark's Theory in the 1790's. Lamark believed that man was descended from apes (not that we have a common ancestry), so Africans then became the link between Apes and Humans.

I learned about Lamark's Theory in school....50 years ago!

But if you want something more recent and more relevant to Australia, how about the controversy over the racial vilification of Andrew Symonds on the Aussie cricket tour to India... in 2007!!

"Four Indian cricket fans are to face charges of racially abusing the Australian all-rounder Andrew Symonds after allegedly taunting him with monkey gestures, police in Mumbai said yesterday.

The four were ejected from Wednesday's one-day international (ODI), which India narrowly won, after officials showed police pictures of three men and one woman making racist gestures towards Symonds, who was the only black player in the Australian team.

The fans were charged with "misbehaviour and harassment" and were freed on bail pending a court appearance."
​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/oct/18/cricket.india