What is wrong with what Steorn is doing?

Steorn has now explained that it wasn't the heat, it was the bearings that inexplicably bust, causing friction to "go to hell". Apparently the system is very simple, they had three prototypes there, and somehow they couldn't get even one to work for the demo. Who is going to believe that?

Here you can see the video of Sean McCarthy announcing "we screwed up" and answering questions: http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/07/steorns-ceo-states-the-obvious-we-screwed-up/
 
Michael C said:
Steorn has now explained that it wasn't the heat, it was the bearings that inexplicably bust, causing friction to "go to hell". Apparently the system is very simple, they had three prototypes there, and somehow they couldn't get even one to work for the demo. Who is going to believe that?

Here you can see the video of Sean McCarthy announcing "we screwed up" and answering questions: http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/07/steorns-ceo-states-the-obvious-we-screwed-up/
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[paraphrase from memory] "our ball bearings bust, we didn't have any more, our engineers have some, but they're back in Ireland"

ball bearings those rarest of commodities wholly unavailable in London :)
 
andyandy said:
[paraphrase from memory] "our ball bearings bust, we didn't have any more, our engineers have some, but they're back in Ireland"

ball bearings those rarest of commodities wholly unavailable in London :)
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Maybe they have to be machined specially by lesbian virgin midgets from Antarctica?

The more likely culprit is flat-out fraud.
 
Here's a cool comment from a certain "Shig" at engadget:

"Oh, I fully expect they'll have a demonstration up and running by next week. It'll run faster and faster, until eventually it'll be able to haul a sixteen-ton weight up to the ceiling.

On the first day of the demo, a man in a tan suit and red Converse sneakers will dash up and say, "Tha's brilliant! Mankind wasn't supposed to develop tempo-dynamic accumulation technology for... oh, I dunno, four centuries at least. But tell me, how do you compensate for the dimensional shear effects?"

And McCarthy will squint at him and say, "The wha'?"

And the Doctor will gape at him, gape at the machine, gape at him, gape at the machine, look up, look down, scratch his head... and then all the color will drain out of his face. "Everybody out!" he'll shout. "It's going to--"

And with a thunderous roar, a swirling blue vortex will spring into being just under the ceiling, and a giant clawed hand will reach through, pound the machine into scrap, and haul a screaming McCarthy back through the vortex, which will close up behind them.

You just wait."
 
About the bearings....

There are duplicate threads on this topic going, and I related this theory that I stole from a guy over on the Steorn forum. (No one follows links around, so I'll repeat it.)

Sean said that the bearings were extremely sensitive because they got them from watch/clock makers. So it wasn't that they were shoddy Chinese parts as several Steornites have said, it was that their tolerance was so minute. The bearings in a watch or clock are designed to handle very sensitive and well-balanced mechanisms, and to create as little friction or drag as possible. This being why a grandfather clock can run for thirty days or more.
This being the case, said poster's theory is that Steorn had designed a slick watch mechanism that would have the appearance of an inexplicable source of energy, run smoothly for 10 days (the amount of time the arranged for the vid streaming) and was actually just a watch..... a watch that would wind down eventually, but not on camera.
It's an interesting theory. Not sure I'm buying into it, but I like his "thinking outside the box"....
 
Foolmewunz said:
Sean said ... This being why a grandfather clock can run for thirty days or more.
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Gee, and all this time I had thought it was those big, heavy weights that kept the clock going. Ya learn something every day.
 
jsfisher said:
Gee, and all this time I had thought it was those big, heavy weights that kept the clock going. Ya learn something every day.
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And if you have crappy bearings (or what functions as a bearing in a grandfather clock) that create too much friction, how long would those big heavy weights run Mr. Grandfather Clock?

The watch example is better, I'll admit..... but the point is the same.... you can get a machine (mechanical device) to run for a very long time from it's initial "push", whether that's a physical shove, a jolt of electricity, a gust of wind, .... etc.... But you can only do it if it's a very fine-tuned mechanism, and even then, sooner or later it's going to run out of energy. Later rather than sooner in an expensive watch or clock.
 
Of course...

The more the friction, the longer it takes for the weights to hit the ground and the longer the clock runs. Of course, too much friction and the weights will not move at all. In this case, of course, you could use heavier weights. Of course then the clock's mechanism would need to be stronger....
 
Foolmewunz said:
And if you have crappy bearings (or what functions as a bearing in a grandfather clock) that create too much friction, how long would those big heavy weights run Mr. Grandfather Clock?
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I dunno about grandfather clocks, but the bearings in my grandfather's railroad watch are rubies (hence the term 17 (or whatever)-jewel movement). It would be hard to screw up such a bearing by shining a light on it.
 
BillyJoe said:
Of course...

The more the friction, the longer it takes for the weights to hit the ground and the longer the clock runs. Of course, too much friction and the weights will not move at all. In this case, of course, you could use heavier weights. Of course then the clock's mechanism would need to be stronger....
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No. You want high impedance -- in this case, a high gear ratio between the drum the chain is wound on and the escapement, and as little friction as possible.
 
Gears. Of course!

http://www.howstuffworks.com/clock.htm

Let's say we put some kind of friction device on the drum -- some sort of brake pad or something that would slow the drum down. This might work. We would certainly be able to devise some scheme based on friction to get the second hand to make approximately one revolution per minute. But it would only be approximate. As the temperature and the humidity in the air changed, the friction in the device would change. Thus our [clock] would not keep very good time.
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Friction, on its own, is unreliable.

One thing to keep in mind is that pendulums will not swing forever. Therefore, one additional job of the escapement gear is to impart just enough energy into the pendulum to overcome friction and allow it to keep swinging.
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Friction, when combined with the weight, needs to be minimised if you want the clock to run longer.
 
If it's fraud, I don't see how they make a profit. Okay, yeah, they get $50 million from investors and spend $10 million, then finally claim they can't continue due to financial considerations. Voila, $40 million profit.

But aren't they a corporation? And don't they have to file tax returns, even if they supposedly ran out of money? And don't the investors have a right to see the financial statements the tax returns are based on? Accounting is like physic, except that you don't have conservation of energy; you have conservation of money. Every dollar that goes into a system either stays in it or goes out of it - there are no "excess dollars" floating around, any more than there is excess energy in physics.

I think it's a scam, but I don't see how they make money on this.

BTW, regarding the claims of upwards of 285% efficiency: Where does all that excess energy get stored when it gets created (I'm coming late to this, so apologies if this question has been beaten to death already)?
 
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BPSCG said:
If it's fraud, I don't see how they make a profit. Okay, yeah, they get $50 million from investors and spend $10 million, then finally claim they can't continue due to financial considerations. Voila, $40 million profit.

But aren't they a corporation? And don't they have to file tax returns, even if they supposedly ran out of money? And don't the investors have a right to see the financial statements the tax returns are based on? Accounting is like physic, except that you don't have conservation of energy; you have conservation of money. Every dollar that goes into a system either stays in it or goes out of it - there are no "excess dollars" floating around, any more than there is excess energy in physics.

I think it's a scam, but I don't see how they make money on this.

BTW, regarding the claims of upwards of 285% efficiency: Where does all that excess energy get stored when it gets created (I'm coming late to this, so apologies if this question has been beaten to death already)?
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If I were in charge of the company, I would probably have a $250k to $500k per year salary, as well as some bonuses. Yeah, I'd have to pay tax on it, and yeah, I would only get a small portion of the whole $50 million, but if I could stretch it out to 3 or 4 years, I would be very comfortable, and legally in the clear.

But from recent comments made by the CEO Sean, it sounds like it is more likely just to be a delusion than a scam. I enjoyed it more when I thought it was a scam, since now it is just plain sad. Watching someone go 'round the bend isn't pretty.
 
BPSCG said:
If it's fraud, I don't see how they make a profit. Okay, yeah, they get $50 million from investors and spend $10 million, then finally claim they can't continue due to financial considerations. Voila, $40 million profit.
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The question is, what are they spending that money on? And if they are a scam, why stop at $10 million? A big chunk of their costs will be salaries - so everyone from the CEO on down keeps making $X per year for as long as they can keep it up. They'll also need some materials to work with, and hey, they just happen know a guy who can supply them with their widgets, for only $Y per year......

There are lots of ways they can extract money from this. As an example: Who owns the building they're working in? How much rent do they pay? Set up a shell company to own the building, and funnel cash into your own pockets by renting it to yourself, and bingo, you're done. You'd need a good lawyer and accountant to make sure the details worked out, but I'm sure you could keep it legal.

Hey, it beats actually working for a living....
 
Sounds like a case for making business entrepreneurs personally liable.
I think something like that operates here.
 
Horatius said:
The question is, what are they spending that money on? And if they are a scam, why stop at $10 million? A big chunk of their costs will be salaries - so everyone from the CEO on down keeps making $X per year for as long as they can keep it up. They'll also need some materials to work with, and hey, they just happen know a guy who can supply them with their widgets, for only $Y per year......

There are lots of ways they can extract money from this. As an example: Who owns the building they're working in? How much rent do they pay? Set up a shell company to own the building, and funnel cash into your own pockets by renting it to yourself, and bingo, you're done. You'd need a good lawyer and accountant to make sure the details worked out, but I'm sure you could keep it legal.

Hey, it beats actually working for a living....
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True, but eventually it will all come crashing down, there will be much egg on face, many heads rolling and law suits a-plenty. I can't wait, its going to be hilarious. I wouldn't like to work for them even for a ridiculous amount of cash, imaging having that on you CV - 'Yeah I was an engineer for Steorn'... don't call us, we'll call you!
 
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