What is wrong with what Steorn is doing?

[T'ai Chi]

You didn't understand the point you tried to respond to.

Feel free to actually show where I'm wrong in suggesting to use science to analyze machines.

I'm sure you will.

 

[Darat]

Feel free to actually show where I'm wrong in suggesting to use science to analyze machines.

I'm sure you will.

I never said you was wrong to suggest that.

 

[TjW]

I believe ttch's point was that the average consumer does not have his equipment instrumented in such a way as to detect a tenth percent improvement in efficiency. The typical "instrumentation" is just the monthly bill.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I never said you was wrong to suggest that.

Feel free to explain why you believe I "don't understand" what I responded to.

 

[Darat]

Feel free to explain why you believe I "don't understand" what I responded to.

I do.

 

[delphi_ote]

You do some science.

What experiment would you conduct?

 

[T'ai Chi]

Originally Posted by ttch

If your air conditioner or DVD player were 0.1 percent more or less efficient than it "should" be, how would you know?

You do some science.

Do people disagree with this answer?

 

[Mojo]

You do some science.

Do people disagree with this answer?

It is interesting.

 

[ttch]

And who looks for fractional-percent gains or losses outside particle physics? If your air conditioner or DVD player were 0.1 percent more or less efficient than it "should" be, how would you know?

I guess what I meant to say is that the vast majority of complex machines are built by engineers who know the laws of thermodynamics, understand there will be losses, and if they can get their design to within 1% of its maximum theoretical efficiency then they're having a very good day indeed. They do not tend to go searching for that lost erg.

Likewise they'd be unlikely to even know about an extra one. If such a thing were possible.

 

[CFLarsen]

You do some science.

Do people disagree with this answer?

Schwartz did "some science". Benveniste did "some science". Soal, Targ, Puthoff, Jahn, Radin....all did "some science".

Get the point?

 

[delphi_ote]

You do some science.

Again, what experiment would you do? This problem is undecidable without extremely sensitive measuring equipment.

 

[Zygar]

Originally Posted by ttch



You do some science.

Do people disagree with this answer?

Do people think that "Doing some science" is as simple as that? Hell, I'll just pop on over to the scienomat and pop my science in to a science machine. It always makes my science smell fresh and clean.

 

[Horatius]

You do some science.

Do people disagree with this answer?

Do you routinely do efficiency measurements on your air conditioner?

You can't "do some science" unless you have a motivation to do it. Did your air conditioner suddenly keep working after you unplugged it? Then maybe you'd "do some science". Otherwise you'd just plug it in and expect it to work within the laws of physics.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Who knows if they think it is simple or not, and who really cares.

The point, that you missed, was that when asked how to analyze a machine, if you think you do it reliably any other way you are fooling yourself.

 

[Mojo]

Have Steorn come up with any actual results yet?

 

[T'ai Chi]

http://www.steorn.net/en/contact.aspx?p=8

Let us know.

 

[Mojo]

Wouldn't they announce it if they had? Perhaps in a magazine read by people they hope will invest in their product?

 

[Foolmewunz]

Wouldn't they announce it if they had? Perhaps in a magazine read by people they hope will invest in their product?

Well, I'm signed up to be "one of the first to hear the results". So far, my mailbox is empty. I'm watching the site because they're supposed to have made their final decision, and are now executing the contracts with the scientists. If they're legit, they should then announce the names and bona fides of that panel. This should be in the first week of December.

I'm on tenterhooks!

 

[CFLarsen]

Have Steorn come up with any actual results yet?

http://www.steorn.net/en/contact.aspx?p=8

Let us know.

"No".

 

[ttch]

Well, I'm signed up to be "one of the first to hear the results". So far, my mailbox is empty. I'm watching the site because they're supposed to have made their final decision, and are now executing the contracts with the scientists. If they're legit, they should then announce the names and bona fides of that panel. This should be in the first week of December.

My understanding is that the scientists' names and qualifications will be announced only when they deliver their verdict, which is tentatively expected in early April (fortunately, April 1 is a Saturday).

This makes sense to me as otherwise the scientists would be ceaselessly hounded by queries from hundreds or thousands of curious people. And there will be criticism of the panel no matter who is chosen.

Steorn hasn't done any publicity after the first 2-3 weeks, when they were looking for a pool of potential scientist-jurors. As their forum has served its purpose enticing same, I would not be surprised to see them shut it down now.

Assuming, of course, that at least this jury business is real.

As Randi notes, there are dozens of perpetual motion claims made each year. There's just been another one from Turkey ("Erke Energy Research and Engineering Corporation"). My advice would be to not waste more energy thinking about Steorn until/unless they make another announcement.