What is paranormal in Homeopathy

[Kumar]

Nobody is suggesting that the supply of sugar (apart from in the form of homeopathic pills, of course ) or other foostuffs needs to be controlled, even if some people do need to control their diet. But substances with pharmacological effects are by their very nature hazardous, so need to be properly tested to ensure that their benefits outweigh the risks, and licenced as medicines so that the use of them can be regulated and controlled. This is true whether the substance is synthetic or natural in origin. Many naturally occurring substances are highly toxic.

Natural means; whose inherant sense of right & wrong is known. Any substance whose sense is known & applied accordingly, can be conssidered as 'with least adversities, comparatively safe'. Are sugar or salt not toxic in toxic quantity. Main consideration is their inherant knowledge of right & wrong.

 

[Mojo]

Natural means; whose inherant sense of right & wrong is known. Any substance whose sense is known & applied accordingly, can be conssidered as 'with least adversities, comparatively safe'. Are sugar or salt not toxic in toxic quantity. Main consideration is their inherant knowledge of right & wrong.

Well, if you're going to re-define the word "natural" to mean safe, you're going to have to test medicines to find out whether they fit your definition, whatever their origin.

Do you really think that sugar and salt have "inherant knowledge of right & wrong?" They don't appear to have the intellectual apparatus for it.

 

[Ashles]

Natural means; whose inherant sense of right & wrong is known.

So if I drop you in the jungle you'll have an inherent sense of what is "right or wrong" for your body will you? Of course not.
Your statement is pretty much ridiculous.

Any substance whose sense is known & applied accordingly, can be conssidered as 'with least adversities, comparatively safe'. Are sugar or salt not toxic in toxic quantity.

Anything is "toxic in toxic quantity". Sugar, salt, water, oxygen... It's the actual definition of a toxic quantity - the amount of something that will be toxic.
Conversely anything is safe in safe quantities.
This statement of yours is also ridiculous.

Main consideration is their inherant knowledge of right & wrong.

Three for three.

The "natural" claim holds no water, and makes no sense. We don't magically create chemicals out of thin air - they are all naturally occurring one way or another.
How we (or organic processes) recombine them is irrelevent to their effects.

Whether salt comes from the sea and is packaged in delightful rural containers labelled "natural", or whether Sodium and Chlorine are combined in a container in the lab, it's still salt and it will taste nice on chips, and it will still raise your blood pressure if you have too much of it. "Natural" or not.

 

[Rolfe]

Natural means; whose inherant sense of right & wrong is known.

Point of information. Kumar has been looking up a dictionary.

As he probably doesn't realise, the same word or phrase may mean more than one thing, depending on the context. And old-fashioned meaning of the phrase "natural law" is what we now call the "moral law" - the idea that the sense that human beings have of right and wrong is instinctive, or "natural".

Kumar is conflating this with the completely separate meaning of "natural" as the opposite of "artificial", and thus trying to assert that substances which are not artificial have an inherent sense of right and wrong.

And thus apparently deciding that a non-artificial substance is always "right". Hmmmm. Consider botulinum toxin.

Rolfe.

 

[andycal]

I've actually seen this thread as a form of education. Whilst originally I thought it pointless and it was simply playing into the hands of a troll (or a couple of trolls - a pack of trolls? Another thread perhaps..), I have learned a lot.

I know that Homeopathy is bunk because I have a small (GCSE plus reading a lot of books) understanding of chemistry. Couple this with common sense and I can survive in these woo-filled days. But there is no way I could argue with some of the ramblings of Dr. Mas when he starts quoting his numbers because I just don't have the education. I'd have to start reading up a lot of books, something I don't have the time to do.

These ramblings though appear to be smokescreen and obsfucation and little else. I know this now because people such as the quite amazing Rolfe and the tenacious Ashles have an ability to cut through the crap and put Mas right.

So, to Ash, Rolfe, BSM and all the others on the side of light, thank you. All of the good stuff is being added to my snippets and armoury of 'good information'.

As for Kumar, is there any chance you could point me to the random sentence generator you're using, it's fantastic. Does it need batteries?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Consider botulinum toxin.

Synchronicity! I was about to mention botulinum toxin. Somehow its inherent sense of right and wrong gets misplaced when it turns up in a defective tin of food or kills ducks in a pond.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Whilst originally I thought it pointless and it was simply playing into the hands of a troll (or a couple of trolls - a pack of trolls? Another thread perhaps..)

Can I suggest that the collective noun should be an underbridge of trolls?

 

[Ashles]

So, to Ash, Rolfe, BSM and all the others on the side of light, thank you. All of the good stuff is being added to my snippets and armoury of 'good information'.

I'm really genuinely flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as Rolfe and BSM who's knowledge and experience I am not fit to touch the hem of.

When it comes to dilutions and the actual chemistry of all of this I am learning as much as anyone else from their excellent posts and great knowedge of, not only their own subjects, but of homeopathy too. Not one homeopath has appeared to come close to their knowledge of the subject and even homeopathy's own claims!

I merely point out the simple and obvious to MAS and Kumar, and try to get them to do some of the work round here.
Rolfe and BSM can (and do) explain real scientific information from a wide variety of sources all day in excellent and clear posts.
And of course so do many other highly knowledgeable posters, especially Geni.

I just ask the homeopaths to do the same for us. If they feel homeopathy has an explanation to actually offer us that explanation.

 

[Doc2005]

Can I suggest that the collective noun should be an underbridge of trolls?

Come out from TROLL state of mind. Nobody is troll here, we can provide all kind of information on administrator's request even we are ready to send our attested certifications. Open avatar and picture profiles. we are willing to paste our photos at them with complete postal addresses. We are not afraid of anything. All pakistani's are writing with their real name and location at homeopathic forums but for this forum the instructions are not to disclose our identity.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Come out from TROLL state of mind. Nobody is troll here, we can provide all kind of information on administrator's request even we are ready to send our attested certifications. Open avatar and picture profiles. we are willing to paste our photos at them with complete postal addresses. We are not afraid of anything. All pakistani's are writing with their real name and location at homeopathic forums but for this forum the instructions are not to disclose our identity.

"Trolling" has very little to do with identity. It has everything to do with intentions and actions.

A "troll" will enter this board to divert discussion to all sorts of irrelevances while evading and avoiding the real issues. Which are you going to do?

I've already suggested one way you can immediately demonstrate your honesty and good faith, and that is by answering the simple question of the arithmetic of solutions, which MAS has so far been unable to answer.

Here is the link where the question has been posed again. Please answer it.

 

[andycal]

Can I suggest that the collective noun should be an underbridge of trolls?

I second that. I think we've just invented something new!

Come out from TROLL state of mind. Nobody is troll here, we can provide all kind of information on administrator's request even we are ready to send our attested certifications. Open avatar and picture profiles. we are willing to paste our photos at them with complete postal addresses. We are not afraid of anything. All pakistani's are writing with their real name and location at homeopathic forums but for this forum the instructions are not to disclose our identity.

The reason you are being labelled trolls has nothing to do with your profiles or whether you have pretty pictures of yourselves. It's because of your amazing ability to keep spouting nonsense whilst deftly avoiding answering any direct questions.

All of the homeopaths on the forum have been asked extremely simple questions : "How does homeopathy work". Yet you are unable to answer it.

When you pose a question you receive an answer. You then try to undermine the answer by either replying with more nonsense or by trying to undermine the chemistry behind it.

If I read correctly, you are asking people to completely ignore their education and the education of many before them and accept *your* understanding of chemistry. Only then will the effects of homeopathy be understood.

Well, that's just stupid. You can't just change the rules to match what you expect or believe to happen.

Here's what you are doing:

• Asking inane questions
• Hiding when asked *real* questions
• Attempting to avoid the issue
• When challenged, giving pointless excuses

If you are sure of your claims then simply explain how it works. That's all. Just answer the damn question. Now.

Don't answer this with another question, don't say "Dr. Mas is explaining" etc.etc. because his lessons so far have been appauling.

Just answer the question. How does it work? Easy huh?

No it's not. Because you're a troll.

 

[Ed]

I have sort of stopped posting on this forum since dealing with believers is largely pointless. I am gratified to see that after 25 pages my provisional hypothesis is well confirmed.

That said I would like to explain why, in simple terms, homeopathy is bogus. It has nothing to do with science or Avagadro or X's or C's.

The evidence is as follows: Traditional medicine still exists. If any of this (cheap) mumbo jumbo worked it would have simply replaced expensive modern methods of medicine. Any loon can become a "Doctor" of homeopathy. It would seem to me that if there were value we would see every family sporting such a "Doctor" who would successfully treat their local community for virtually free. Medical schools would be turned into centers for performance art and hospitals would house the overflow from Gitmo.

None of this has happened, as far as I can see. What we are left with is childish insistance.

I suspect a devotee would claim conspiracy: "The big drug companies, George Bush, Halliburton, the Jews, etc, etc.". This, of course, is utter nonsence. Conspiracies have there place when it comes to UFO's and Elvis but really don't wash when it comes to something as near and dear as peoples health. I note, parenthetically, the medical marijuania development which is washing, as we speak over NY. It seems that when a claim has legs it trumps conspiracy as well as, potentially, the Justice Department. The conspiracy theorist would also have to address the fact that in US law, Homeopathy has been given special treatment so as to avoid troublesome testing protocols.

So, the evidence of our eyes is that what we have here is a bogus construct. One that is quasi-religious and fuled by a number of loudmouths. A construct that has no objective value or truth or benefit but, rather, is fueled by the various psychological needs of it's followers. It is really no different from any other cult. It's truth exists only in insistance.

 

[Kumar]

Synchronicity! I was about to mention botulinum toxin. Somehow its inherent sense of right and wrong gets misplaced when it turns up in a defective tin of food or kills ducks in a pond.

Was this natural? Were those living in nature? Was this naturally ingested? Whatever the case, accidents are also natural or these do happen in nature? No accidents, no/less natural deaths, excess etc...may be bit unnatural?

 

[Perpetual Notion]

These ramblings though appear to be smokescreen and obsfucation and little else. I know this now because people such as the quite amazing Rolfe and the tenacious Ashles have an ability to cut through the crap and put Mas right.

So, to Ash, Rolfe, BSM and all the others on the side of light, thank you. All of the good stuff is being added to my snippets and armoury of 'good information'.

I couldn't agree more and would like to add Hans, Donks and now marcchem to the list. I hope I'm not leaving anybody out. My high school chemistry is a dim memory as are my college biology classes and I remember just enough to know that the homeopaths explanations are completely wrong, but don't know how to put it into more specific terms.

When I hear about the conspiracy theories, I get furious. I work in a hospital and you will never see a group of more dedicated, caring and brilliant individuals. Doctors, nurses and support staff work in a state of exhaustion most of the time to save peoples' lives and to accuse them of withholding cures is to call them murderers.

All I want is one straight answer from a homeopath - any homeopath. No more show us your IP addresses, vitas, or the new one that's taking shape, you unfairly suspended Non-Sense. That one is already starting on another thread. If you don't know how it works and you just believe, then admit it. I'll take it.

 

[anor277]

Just a modest proposal for dealing with homeopathic concentrations - the x and C (and D) labels are quite confusing. Most of us are familiar with the pH scale, where the p function means -log<SUB>10</SUB>, i.e. if [H<SUP>+</SUP>] = 0.01 mol L<SUP>-1</SUP> pH = 2 etc. If we use this function on the NaCl solution, originally 1 mol L<SUP>-1</SUP> and then diluted to 0.01 mol L<SUP>-1</SUP>, 1C in homeopaths' parlance would be pNa<SUP>+</SUP> = pCl<SUP>-</SUP> = 2. Around pNa<SUP>+</SUP> = 24 and at higher p values the numbers start getting ridiculous and we have fractional values of atomic particles per litre of solution.

Who needs the x and C notation?

 

[Mojo]

Who needs the x and C notation?

Beyond 24X or 12C, nobody.

 

[Ashles]

I couldn't agree more and would like to add Hans, Donks and now marcchem to the list.

Goodness, yes - especially as Hans is debating prettty much all by himself with the homeopaths at the moment, and reiterating all these same points over at NCHPakistan Forums

And let's not forget Zep and his invaluable contributions.

 

[andycal]

Hans has the constitution of an ox. Very soon after this thread started I was with Aussie thinker - let's slap the idiots and see if they can cure themselves with their amazing tinctures.

I still think we're too soft on the woo's but that's my way. But here goes Hans, not only tirelessley batting off their arguments but taking it to their own back yard!

"Come and 'ave a go if you think you're 'ard enough"

Mind you, regardless of the beating the homeopaths get, they just stand there taking it. It's a bit like that episode of the Simpsons when Homer just stands in the boxing ring getting thrashed.

Almost tragic. I'm starting to pity them now, must leave work and get to the pub...

 

[Perpetual Notion]

When I first started lurking on the forums, Hans would still debate Kumar and I learned so much from him. He has a wonderful way of explaining the most complex ideas very simply. He's a gifted teacher. I'm getting a bit ticked off that Kumar has irritated everyone so much that they no longer feel it's of any use to try to educate him. I was learning so much watching them bat down his senseless arguments. I can't say that I blame them though.

I have been inspired to return to school and will be taking a biology class at my local university this summer. I hope that I have a great teacher like some of the folks here. Even for all the frustration of dealing with people like Mas, this is a wonderful place.

 

[Ashles]

I have been inspired to return to school and will be taking a biology class at my local university this summer. I hope that I have a great teacher like some of the folks here. Even for all the frustration of dealing with people like Mas, this is a wonderful place.

Well if that isn't a tribute to the spirit of the JREF I don't know what is.

Perhaps, in some way, Kumar's relentless randomness and posters like Hans' patient explanations really do encourage people to learning. (I say give Kumar and Hans a TV show)

That's quite cheered me up. Who'd have thought a thread about homeopathy would contain such pleasant and inspiring news.

Good luck PN.