What IS an "elitist"

[Praktik]

Nice attempt to dodge the issue.

sorry man this went right over my head

 

[Praktik]

Remember the book, What's the Matter with Kansas? Its premise was basically "why are all these hicks voting for the Republicans when their economic interests lie with the Democrats?" Classic elitism.

Have you read the book? Its a lot more sensitive to the conservatives than is caricatured by critics. After all, Frank is from Kansas.

I've seen much more callous insensitivity and cartoonish portraits of conservatives elsewhere.

 

[dudalb]

Remember the book, What's the Matter with Kansas? Its premise was basically "why are all these hicks voting for the Republicans when their economic interests lie with the Democrats?" Classic elitism.

BUt the writer was very critical of the Dems for their elitism.

 

[Praktik]

BUt the writer was very critical of the Dems for their elitism.

indeed. I think Brainster read reactions to the book, rather than the book itself.

 

[Dr Adequate]

As used by conservatives in America, it means a person who thinks they know better than you do how to live your life. But there is an added component; they do so from a lofty perch which makes it clear that they have little understanding of what your life is like.

So, a heterosexual Republican Congressman telling a gay guy that he can't marry his boyfriend because God says no ... ?

Oh, wait, that's not what you mean.

Perhaps you should be more precise.

 

[Brainster]

So, a heterosexual Republican Congressman telling a gay guy that he can't marry his boyfriend because God says no ... ?

You could certainly argue that's elitist.

 

[Brainster]

Have you read the book? Its a lot more sensitive to the conservatives than is caricatured by critics. After all, Frank is from Kansas.

I've seen much more callous insensitivity and cartoonish portraits of conservatives elsewhere.

Sure, Ted Rall, for example. I'll admit I read WTMWK four years ago, so perhaps I have forgotten the nuance you describe. Here's what I wrote about it back then, which does back up Dudalb's point:

Perhaps the most revealing part of the book is when Frank describes his conversion to liberalism. Frank claims to have been a solid conservative as a youth, participating in the high school debate team as a free-trade, pro-capitalist firebrand. But then he went to college and wasn't selected for any of the exclusive fraternities. This awakened his class consciousness and he realized that he was not a member of the elite.

On the other hand:

The book is also suffused with ill-concealed disgust with Kansas and Kansans. Frank himself grew up in Kansas, although he now lives in Chicago. He apparently believes that Kansas was in a golden age when he lived there, but it has gone completely to seed since.

Overall, my take is that Frank was pushing economic populism, not economic elitism, but ironically he was doing so from an elitist viewpoint. So yes, I have read the book.

 

[Ziggurat]

So, a heterosexual Republican Congressman telling a gay guy that he can't marry his boyfriend because God says no ... ?

That's exclusionary, bigoted, prejudiced, and what have you, but it's not necessarily elitist. I'd say what's missing from Brainster's characterization is that those who are supposed to know better see themselves as necessarily a privileged minority. After all, a majority can't be elite any more than everyone can be above average. But much religious sentiment, even exclusionary sentiment, is often quite populist and so doesn't fit the required minority status of elitism.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You could certainly argue that's elitist.

Actually, I would argue that it's populist (kind of "the opposite"). It appeals to community standards, the idea of "normal", and what "everybody knows" to be right and wrong. This is the opposite of elitism, which denegrates the community for the elite, eschews the normal for the exceptional, and assumes that the elite knows better than everyone else.

 

[Brainster]

Actually, I would argue that it's populist (kind of "the opposite"). It appeals to community standards, the idea of "normal", and what "everybody knows" to be right and wrong. This is the opposite of elitism, which denegrates the community for the elite, eschews the normal for the exceptional, and assumes that the elite knows better than everyone else.

Good points by both you and Ziggy.

 

[dudalb]

Populism and Elitism both are, in their more virulent forms, equally bad.One leads to Mob Rule, the other to rule by a small group of people who "know better then the masses"

Elitism on the left is not a new phenomenon. It was what George Orwell was commenting on with his "Inner Party" in 1984, with their open contempt for "The Proles".

HG Wells, who was in many thing a brilliant guy, sadly fell for this concept and spent a good deal of the last 40 years of his life arguing that Democracy could not work, and small ,scientific elite should hold complete power. "The Shape Of Things To Come" is probably the most famous example of this. (The film version, btw tones down the book quite a bit in this regard)What Wells forgot, of course, is that intelligence and knowledge do not automaticall produce ethical behavior, and that rule by an elite would end up being rule for the benefit of an elite given human nature.

I am by no means arguing that everybody on the Left is an Elitist. But enough are to create a major problem for the Left, which the Right naturally exploits and exaggerates.

 

[Dr Adequate]

You could certainly argue that's elitist.

No. As you know, my skills in argumentation are great, but that one defeats even me.

 

[Dr Adequate]

That's exclusionary, bigoted, prejudiced, and what have you, but it's not necessarily elitist. I'd say what's missing from Brainster's characterization is that those who are supposed to know better see themselves as necessarily a privileged minority. After all, a majority can't be elite any more than everyone can be above average. But much religious sentiment, even exclusionary sentiment, is often quite populist and so doesn't fit the required minority status of elitism.

The fundies manage to perceive themselves as a persecuted minority. But privileged because they know what God is thinking.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As used by conservatives in America, it means a person who thinks they know better than you do how to live your life.

As I've seen it used, not by conservatives, but by right wing nuts, it means a person (generally a liberal) who thinks they are smarter than you (the right wing nut). And in 99% of the cases, they are smarter than you (the right wing nut).

 

[Brainster]

As I've seen it used, not by conservatives, but by right wing nuts, it means a person (generally a liberal) who thinks they are smarter than you (the right wing nut). And in 99% of the cases, they are smarter than you (the right wing nut).

But when it's used by conservatives, not right wing nuts, in 99% of the cases they (the liberals) are not smarter than them (the conservatives)? Or are you saying that no conservatives use the elitist term?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

But when it's used by conservatives, not right wing nuts, in 99% of the cases they (the liberals) are not smarter than them (the conservatives)? Or are you saying that no conservatives use the elitist term?

I've never heard a true conservative use the term.

 

[Tricky]

I've never heard a true conservative use the term.

Or put it on his porridge.

 

[cwalner]

But when it's used by conservatives, not right wing nuts, in 99% of the cases they (the liberals) are not smarter than them (the conservatives)? Or are you saying that no conservatives use the elitist term?

Not sure about that. Generally , in my experience, conservatives that label thier opposition as elitist are right wing nuts, or more likely, pandering to them.

 

[cwalner]

This thread has me thinking. I have two questions for conservatives. Who do you think is more of an elitist, George W. Bush or Barack H. Obama? and more importantly why?

 

[Puppycow]

What is an "elitist"?

Anyone who's amused by this:


Watch the whole thing if you can and see where he goes.

(some language may be NSFW)