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What do Mormons Believe?

ksbluesfan said:
Even though DNA evidence suggests that Indians are not closely related to the Israelists and they have been here for 15,000 years or so? I'm not sure I want to hear a justification for that.
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I can't believe this. You misread what I said, so I am forced to open up my argument.

I think that the Book of Mormon itself makes it clear that a significant proportion of population of the Americas is not from the line of Lehi, and therefore not descended from the Isrealites. For one thing there is the book of Ether in the BoM which discusses an earlier tribe of people. The other important thing to note that most Mormons and non-Mormons completely miss in the BoM is that "the Lamanites" is the name given to the dark skinned people that they find in the Americas. It is niether stated nor plausible that these people were actually children of Laman and Lemuel.

The other important thing to note is that all the light-skinned people were killed off. So there is little need to expect the Nephite bloodline to still be around.

I'm afraid that the 15,000 year old natives and the genetic code of the remaining natives are not sufficient to break the foundation of this religion. Sorry.
 
Zygar said:
I can't believe this. You misread what I said, so I am forced to open up my argument.

I think that the Book of Mormon itself makes it clear that a significant proportion of population of the Americas is not from the line of Lehi, and therefore not descended from the Isrealites. For one thing there is the book of Ether in the BoM which discusses an earlier tribe of people. The other important thing to note that most Mormons and non-Mormons completely miss in the BoM is that "the Lamanites" is the name given to the dark skinned people that they find in the Americas. It is niether stated nor plausible that these people were actually children of Laman and Lemuel.

The other important thing to note is that all the light-skinned people were killed off. So there is little need to expect the Nephite bloodline to still be around.

I'm afraid that the 15,000 year old natives and the genetic code of the remaining natives are not sufficient to break the foundation of this religion. Sorry.
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Well that may be so, but what about the complete lack of any actual evidence for pre-Columbian Israelites in the Americas? That's a bit like saying they might as well believe that the Americas were home to giant snow pigs with wings.
 
ReligionStudent said:
Well that may be so, but what about the complete lack of any actual evidence for pre-Columbian Israelites in the Americas? That's a bit like saying they might as well believe that the Americas were home to giant snow pigs with wings.
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Agreed. I refuse to defend this point, since I am not a believer. Thanks all for glossing over that fact.
 
I heard once that someone did some sort of calculation of how heavy the gold discs must have been. I don't remember the logic--they'd have to assume some minimum size of characters and some minimum correspondence to the English transliteration and so on. It may have simply been "if you transcribe the Book of Mormon in any known language legibly onto gold plates it would have to weigh at least . . . "

Anyone know anything about this?

Not that it matters--it's all magical thinking. If you accept this kind of story, how can you possibly not believe ANYthing that ANYone tells you?
 
Hmm....first of all, gold can be made into very thin sheets. Of course very thin sheets wouldn't be real practical, but this is a magical book. And Smith could have used magic to carry it, or even made more than one trip.

Second, IIRC, the Book of Mormon was written in hieroglyphics and translated through divine revelation. One glyph can correspond to a whole sentence, with the downside being that your vocabulary needs to be huge and your glyphs complex. (See Chinese for a practical example.)

I suspect that you could come up with a scenario where the book fits. Sort of like the guys that manage to fit all the animals on Noah's ark.
 
Zygar said:
While I find this anecdote to have the ring of truth, there are so very many conflicting statements about what happened to these first pages that this is hardly proof.

Regardless, if there were absolute proof of the fraud, then the Mormon religion would fall apart very quickly. I would gladly provide this proof to all of my LDS friends and family, but alas, it does not exist.
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Why? Contrary evidence has been found about other religions that are still in existence. I believe even Popoff is doing his faith healing thing again.

Evidence does not trump belief in many people. It would damage the church sure but not destroy it.

As for such evidence this is rather like proving a negative at this point. If it happened to day, you might be able to show with records that such a recounting is impossible, but we don't have enough records.
 
Zygar said:
I can't believe this. You misread what I said, so I am forced to open up my argument.

I think that the Book of Mormon itself makes it clear that a significant proportion of population of the Americas is not from the line of Lehi, and therefore not descended from the Isrealites. For one thing there is the book of Ether in the BoM which discusses an earlier tribe of people. The other important thing to note that most Mormons and non-Mormons completely miss in the BoM is that "the Lamanites" is the name given to the dark skinned people that they find in the Americas. It is niether stated nor plausible that these people were actually children of Laman and Lemuel.

The other important thing to note is that all the light-skinned people were killed off. So there is little need to expect the Nephite bloodline to still be around.

I'm afraid that the 15,000 year old natives and the genetic code of the remaining natives are not sufficient to break the foundation of this religion. Sorry.
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What about mistakes involving native animals and technology? I remember hearing about references to metal swords and horses in the americas in the BoM.
 
ReligionStudent said:
It would be so cool if those where in America, they would show up all over the archaeological record.
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Agreed. I think that this is a hole in the fabric of the BoM that most Mormons simply ignore. The talk of horses and other animals could have referred to llamas and other native animals using words that Joseph Smith would know, but there are specific quotes that cannot be negotiated away as easily.

For example: 2 Nephi 5:15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
 
Zygar said:
Agreed. I think that this is a hole in the fabric of the BoM that most Mormons simply ignore. The talk of horses and other animals could have referred to llamas and other native animals using words that Joseph Smith would know, but there are specific quotes that cannot be negotiated away as easily.
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That depends on if the so called horses where only doing things llamas can do. If people are riding them or they are pulling carts that is a different issue.
 
Zygar said:
I can't believe this. You misread what I said, so I am forced to open up my argument.

I think that the Book of Mormon itself makes it clear that a significant proportion of population of the Americas is not from the line of Lehi, and therefore not descended from the Isrealites. For one thing there is the book of Ether in the BoM which discusses an earlier tribe of people. The other important thing to note that most Mormons and non-Mormons completely miss in the BoM is that "the Lamanites" is the name given to the dark skinned people that they find in the Americas. It is niether stated nor plausible that these people were actually children of Laman and Lemuel.

The other important thing to note is that all the light-skinned people were killed off. So there is little need to expect the Nephite bloodline to still be around.

I'm afraid that the 15,000 year old natives and the genetic code of the remaining natives are not sufficient to break the foundation of this religion. Sorry.
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You seem to be leaning toward an idea that it is a matter of interpretation, and that the lack of any evidence whatsoever is a form of support? Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
 
ReligionStudent said:
You seem to be leaning toward an idea that it is a matter of interpretation, and that the lack of any evidence whatsoever is a form of support? Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
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Zygar is talking about a specific argument brought up by others that:
ksbluesfan said:
Even though DNA evidence suggests that Indians are not closely related to the Israelists and they have been here for 15,000 years or so? I'm not sure I want to hear a justification for that.
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I'd say that Zygar is more saying that to destroy the religion you have to have more proof than that which has been presented. It's not that he's leaning any which way, as he's said he's no longer a believer. What he is saying, as I read it, is that to destroy the basis of faith that the followers have, you have to have a better argument than the above. He uses his knowledge of the BoM to state his case to that point.
 
ponderingturtle said:
That depends on if the so called horses where only doing things llamas can do. If people are riding them or they are pulling carts that is a different issue.
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They refer to chariots, but not ridden horses. I admit that the chariots are highly implausible, given that I am not aware of any wheeled carts that have been discovered in the New World.

ReligionStudent said:
You seem to be leaning toward an idea that it is a matter of interpretation, and that the lack of any evidence whatsoever is a form of support? Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
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Not at all. mylfmyhnr put my position quite well:

mylfmyhnr said:
Zygar is talking about a specific argument brought up by others that:

I'd say that Zygar is more saying that to destroy the religion you have to have more proof than that which has been presented. It's not that he's leaning any which way, as he's said he's no longer a believer. What he is saying, as I read it, is that to destroy the basis of faith that the followers have, you have to have a better argument than the above. He uses his knowledge of the BoM to state his case to that point.
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Thank you, mylfmyhnr! :D
 
Zygar said:
They refer to chariots, but not ridden horses. I admit that the chariots are highly implausible, given that I am not aware of any wheeled carts that have been discovered in the New World.
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So you are suggesting Llama pulled chariots? Where there even Llama's in the area that this supposedly happened?

This is my point, even actual conflicting evidence would mean nothing, as it has not in the past.
 
A Simple Explanation of the Mormon concept of God

The Mormon concept of God is very different from mainline Christianity. But I believe that the majority of Mormons don't realize this. Mormon Church doctrine teaches that God lives in "human form" on another planet and at one time was just a regular human like you and me who evolved into God over time. As I said, I do not believe this is explained to the rank and file Mormons. My understanding is that there are degrees of knowledge in the Mormon church somewhat like Freemasonry.

This concept of the nature of God is extremely different (and I believe false) from mainline Christianity where God (The Father) is Spirit and not in human form. This is not to say that the Mormons don't do good work or believe in the teachings of Jesus but I (being a Christian) believe they only possess a "partial" truth about the nature of God (the Father) and Christ. While a partial knowledge is better than none, I don't believe they can experience the true essence and power of Christianity that is available to the more mainline Christian denominations.
 
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DOC said:
But I believe that the majority of Mormons don't realize this. Mormon Church doctrine teaches that God lives in "human form" on another planet and at one time was just a regular human like you and me who evolved into God over time. As I said, I do not believe this is explained to the rank and file Mormons. My understanding is that there are degrees of knowledge in the Mormon church somewhat like Freemasonry.
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Zygar could address this much better than I, but I think you are incorrect about rank-and-file Mormons not knowing about that particular doctrine.

One of their oft-repeated phrases is something like "As we are, God once was. As God is, we can become."

And I think it is mentioned fairly directily in some of their hymns as well.

I believe that it is something which is not mentioned when the missionaries are telling potential converts about the religion. Another one of their phrases explaining this omission is something like "a baby has to be fed milk until it is ready to digest meat."
 
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