What do Mormons Believe?

[ReligionStudent]

Note, there is no evidence of wheels being used in the Americas for work prior to Columbus.

There are some toys, I believe, that had wheels, but it appears they were never actually put into use.

 

[Zygar]

And holes have been, regarding the bronze swords and existance of horses. They just have cop out answers.

I agree. But they are minor. Not plot necessary, and also not very well discussed in the BoM itself. I think that they are a start.

Because it is a piece of technology that is totally lacking in the area, and an animal not suited for pulling multiple people on a chariot. Chariots are not militarily useful if all they have is a driver, and to get Llama's to pull one you would need a lot of Llama's. And then having a large group of Llama's you are getting into the situation where a dog sled is also very much not like a chariot.

This goes with what I said above. Also, chariots and horses are simply mentioned without much if any context as to what they were used for. Which is interesting given that there is a decent amount of discussion of war and war tactics.

So Mormons would to use a different example not be convinced by a faith healers complete lack of demonstrable effect, they would need to see actual harm done?

That is not the same. Religion manages to get a special exception because of it's societal prevelence.

The inappropriateness of the technology and animals described is positive evidence against it. Smith did not know that horses where not native to the America's when he wrote it, so he messed up.

Agreed. More of what I said above.

Note, there is no evidence of wheels being used in the Americas for work prior to Columbus.

There are some toys, I believe, that had wheels, but it appears they were never actually put into use.

Yes, I think I pointed this out when I brought up chariots.

 

[Kopji]

Hi Kopji! I haven't had much time for the forum, as of late, so I didn't keep up with that thread. I appear to be alive and well.

Yeah, this time of year is always busy for me too. On top of that, the weather's turned really nice and going walking eats into my internet time.

For all the very real and painful problems that differences in religion can cause within families, nothing says "I love you" like a premonition of horrible death.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I agree. But they are minor. Not plot necessary, and also not very well discussed in the BoM itself. I think that they are a start.

This is the only kind of evidence that is likely to show up. The lack of what should be there if it was a true story. In the modern world we might be able to show that smith made it up, but we simply don't have the records. When having him misplace the original gold books does not bother people, why should other evidence that shows his story just does not add up?

This goes with what I said above. Also, chariots and horses are simply mentioned without much if any context as to what they were used for. Which is interesting given that there is a decent amount of discussion of war and war tactics.

Probably because he had little idea of how real chariots where used in warfare at the time.

That is not the same. Religion manages to get a special exception because of it's societal prevalence.

Why? I just don't see that contradictory evidence is all that effective at stopping people from their religious beliefs. Why are Mormons so different? Other than it is somewhat easier to show that their events really could not have happened with out leaving a real mark that would be noticed in the archeology? Most cities cited in the bible have been found, and documented so at least there it is possible that the events could be somewhat based in history. The BoM does not have that.

 

[3point14]

As far as I'm aware, they believe in really big churches

 

[billydkid]

Doesn't the expression "The Grateful Dead" come from the mormons? All I know is it appears that Mormonism ranks up their with Scientology in obvious scam department. But they did use to have appealing commercials - Love makes all things new again - who can resist that?

 

[mylfmyhnr]

Why? I just don't see that contradictory evidence is all that effective at stopping people from their religious beliefs. Why are Mormons so different?

Jesus was born from a virgin... This is contradictory to all know physical laws, and yet the Christians believe that. It's not like the Mormons are unique in believing the extraordinary, it tends to be a requirement in faith in general regardless of the religion or sect. This forum and many other sites have shown numerous contradictions in the bible, but that doesn't cause the masses to put it down and renounce their religion.

 

[mylfmyhnr]

Zygar, mind if I ask what it was that convinced you that the LDS was not, in fact, the real church?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Jesus was born from a virgin... This is contradictory to all know physical laws, and yet the Christians believe that. It's not like the Mormons are unique in believing the extraordinary, it tends to be a requirement in faith in general regardless of the religion or sect. This forum and many other sites have shown numerous contradictions in the bible, but that doesn't cause the masses to put it down and renounce their religion.

But the point is that there is no direct evidence that should be there if that claim where true that we do not have. It is the nature of the evidence that we should expect to have if the claims where true that differentiates this.

The lack of evidence is more damning for Mormons because there is a much larger lack of expected evidence. For example we are sure Nazareth and Israel existed, we have physical evidence to support this belief.

How damning the lack of evidence is to a claim does depend on what sort of claim it is, and the lack of evidence is more damning for Mormons.

Now Zygar's main claim is that most Mormons would be convinced by positive evidence that contradicted their beliefs. The problem is that such evidence really does not exist because you can't prove a negative. The claims are not concrete enough to say, "we excavated the site and there was no Jewish city there in the right time period" because there is not specific site claimed. So there is a lack of refutable claims.

 

[drkitten]

Wouldn't you agree that the average Mormon high school student does not know that it is Mormon theology that God lives on another planet in human form.

I would not; most Mormon high school students that I knew growing up were well aware of this.

 

[mylfmyhnr]

My point is that I see all religions needing a leap of faith to believe and that the Mormons, in fact, are no different. You see it as needing a bigger leap of faith, but that leads into the Mormon sense of banding together. They are a cohesive unit and the outsiders and welcomed... But they are also made to be very aware that they don't belong. Mormons are indoctrinated from birth, they give lessons in front of the congregation at a very young age (think 10), the young men are responsible for the Sacrament... It's a living part of a Mormons life. Your satisfactory evidence for non-belief is all well and good for you. Obviously it isn't for them. And remember, Mormonism is a way of life and a connect to society. To not believe is to be an outcast in your own community. Sometimes it's just easier to believe I can't remember how often I heard someone go up to give their testimony and the whole thing is about how great his or her family is. As is most everything in life, this is all about your own perspective.

 

[joobz]

Wouldn't you agree that the average Mormon high school student does not know that it is Mormon theology that God lives on another planet in human form. Also I have heard that it is Mormon theology that God's body is flesh and bone but does not have human like blood. Would you say that is correct.

DOC, I get the sense that you think the Mormon view of god is somewhat bizarre. Why is it? Why is a being living on another planet less likely than a spirit form being?

 

[ponderingturtle]

My point is that I see all religions needing a leap of faith to believe and that the Mormons, in fact, are no different. You see it as needing a bigger leap of faith, but that leads into the Mormon sense of banding together. They are a cohesive unit and the outsiders and welcomed... But they are also made to be very aware that they don't belong. Mormons are indoctrinated from birth, they give lessons in front of the congregation at a very young age (think 10), the young men are responsible for the Sacrament... It's a living part of a Mormons life. Your satisfactory evidence for non-belief is all well and good for you. Obviously it isn't for them. And remember, Mormonism is a way of life and a connect to society. To not believe is to be an outcast in your own community. Sometimes it's just easier to believe I can't remember how often I heard someone go up to give their testimony and the whole thing is about how great his or her family is. As is most everything in life, this is all about your own perspective.

This is largely my point, that contradictory evidence will not sway people. Zygar thinks it would, and we are debating on how strong the lack of evidence is as contradictory evidence.

 

[mylfmyhnr]

This is largely my point, that contradictory evidence will not sway people. Zygar thinks it would, and we are debating on how strong the lack of evidence is as contradictory evidence.

Ah, understood!

 

[Zygar]

Doesn't the expression "The Grateful Dead" come from the mormons? All I know is it appears that Mormonism ranks up their with Scientology in obvious scam department. But they did use to have appealing commercials - Love makes all things new again - who can resist that?

I have heard that they were the origin of that phrase, but I find it unlikely. There are a great many cultures that worship their dead, and I would venture a guess that it came from Dia de los Meurtos.

This is largely my point, that contradictory evidence will not sway people. Zygar thinks it would, and we are debating on how strong the lack of evidence is as contradictory evidence.

I have read through your points. I think that you are somewhat correct in that the nature of the evidence we can produce is very soft as a result of the vagueness of the BoM. I stated my opinion of what would break the foundations of the church. The reason I think that those two key points are both sufficient is that the church is completely based upon them. Most Mormons recognize that these points are the foundations of the church, and it is my opinion that most are rational enough to recognize a strong proof against the BoM or against Joseph Smith as proof against their religion. I suspect that many of them would turn protestant, or set up cult factions such as the FLDS and other offshoot groups, but the main LDS church would crumble.

 

[Zygar]

Zygar, mind if I ask what it was that convinced you that the LDS was not, in fact, the real church?

This is a highly personal story, but I will tell you that the key was the Book of Enos in the Book of Mormon. Which I find ironic in that it is supposed to be the story of a man's conversion.

 

[joobie]

Doesn't the expression "The Grateful Dead" come from the mormons?

no.

it predates the mormons and appears here and there, among other places the egyptian book of the dead.

if you are talking about the band, they picked it out of a dictionary.

 

[autumn1971]

One thing to add here, every member of the CJCLDS that I have ever met has been very polite and pleasant. I know that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but even when they are knocking on your door, when told to leave, they politely leave. I have never had an LDS missionary yell at me, nor has one ever explained the wrath to follow if I didn't listen to them.
On a personal note, in my high school there was a kind of dynasty of LDS kids, four of them in my general age group. The three girls that I had direct contact with were all hottttttt...sorry, little flashback there. My point is, these popular, attractive (frakkin' HOT), girls were all the nicest folks you could meet. I was a hopeless dork in high school, but these girls, including one who I had classes with, were, without fail, great people to be around. So I guess that LDS doctrine seems to teach at least one thing correctly, and the fact that the thing they teach correctly is a really good thing may be a reason for their membership.

 

[Big Les]

DOC, I get the sense that you think the Mormon view of god is somewhat bizarre. Why is it? Why is a being living on another planet less likely than a spirit form being?

Joobz, is your avatar supposed to be "Finding 'Emo'"?

If so, screw the Mormons, you are a comedy deity, and must be worshipped.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I have read through your points. I think that you are somewhat correct in that the nature of the evidence we can produce is very soft as a result of the vagueness of the BoM. I stated my opinion of what would break the foundations of the church. The reason I think that those two key points are both sufficient is that the church is completely based upon them. Most Mormons recognize that these points are the foundations of the church, and it is my opinion that most are rational enough to recognize a strong proof against the BoM or against Joseph Smith as proof against their religion. I suspect that many of them would turn protestant, or set up cult factions such as the FLDS and other offshoot groups, but the main LDS church would crumble.

And I don't see how those two pillars can be proven to be false by anything other that being so contrived to be unbelievable and it seems to already be there.