What do Mormons believe?

[RandFan]

Chosen People:

What is often forgotten in the polemics is that the Torah also affirms, from its first words about chosenness, that Israel was not chosen either because it was a superior nation or in order to be a superior nation, but rather simply to be God's servant: Chosenness is a status of obligation, not privilege.

It appears that the problem of understand arises in the meaning and interpretation of the words "consecrated" and "loved." These words have different meanings in biblical Hebrew than they do in modern English and in many other languages. The words "consecrated" comes from the root kuf-daled-shin in Hebrew, which we commonly translate "holy" or "sacred" although this is an insufficient rendering. That which is designated "kadosh" is set aside for a special purpose of God; it is reserved for service to God. The designation of "kadosh" does not imply inherent superiority, but rather ultimate disposition. The People Israel was brought into existence to serve God.


http://www.scheinerman.net/judaism/ideas/chosen.html

I am familiar with such apologetics. This is reminiscent of patriarchal societies that held that males are not superior. Their status in society is one of responsibility and women simply have different goals. This carried over to religious leadership. It was the males who were able to converse with god and receive his advice.

Even if the intent was sincere it certainly bred contempt and exclusion.

 

[turtle]

I am familiar with such apologetics. This is reminiscent of patriarchal societies that held that males are not superior. Their status in society is one of responsibility and women simply have different goals. This carried over to religious leadership. It was the males who were able to converse with god and receive his advice.

Even if the intent was sincere it certainly bred contempt and exclusion.

"Apologetics??!!"

Yeah, okay. Got your number.

And why do you think it "bred contempt and exclusion?" Couldn't have anything to do with assumptions, stereotypes, ignorance and bigotry, could it?

 

[RandFan]

"Apologetics??!!"

Is there a problem? What is the complaint with my use of the word "apologetics"? Why don't you get off of your sanctimonious high horse. I doubt you even know what apologetics means. It is not necessarily a pejorative term. I certainly didn't use it in the pejorative.

And why do you think it "bred contempt and exclusion?"

Many Jews came to believe that they were better. They looked down at others. That is why they started referring to everyone else pejoratively as gentile. This is not new. I'm not making this up. Did all Jews do this? No. Most were perfectly decent and honorable people. But the notion of being one of gods people creates enmity. It is a given.

Couldn't have anything to do with assumptions, stereotypes, ignorance and bigotry, could it?

On BOTH sides. Sure. Jews were just as capable of stereotyping, ignorance and bigotry as anyone.

As I just wrote an hour or so ago. If you go to the Museum of Tolerance there are two doors. One is labeled "those without prejudice" the other "those with prejudice". The former is locked.

Following the Holocaust Jews recognized that they were no better than anyone else and just as capable of the atrocities as the Nazis. The trick to stopping such atrocities is to recognize our human frailties and NOT exalt one group over another.

The "Jews are god's chosen people" can only cause problems in the long run. Regardless of the intentions of those who started the nonsense. I say nonsense because I don't believe in god and understanding Human nature and tribalism I'm not convinced that it was purely innocent.

Why did the Jews label themselves "god's chosen"? Was it because god told them they were his chosen? Or was it due to typical human nature and tribalism? Which is the parsimonious answer?

 

[turtle]

Is there a problem? What is the complaint with my use of the word "apologetics"? Why don't you get off of your sanctimonious high horse. I doubt you even know what apologetics means. It is not necessarily a pejorative term.

Wow.

Now, why would be you be nasty and doubt that I am ignorant of what "apologetics" means?

Must have hit a nerve there.

I certainly didn't use it in the pejorative.

Yes you did. Or, if it makes you feel better, I certainly think you did. Fine, whad-evah!

Many Jews came to believe that they were better. They looked down at others.

Um, uh, sputter. . .

That is so stupid and bigoted that it's not insulting, it's funny! You just proved my point very nicely, thank you veddy much!

That is why they started referring to everyone else pejoratively as gentile.

Yeah, okay. Sure. You go on and believe whatever you like there spiffy.

This is not new. I'm not making this up. Did all Jews do this? No. Most were perfectly decent and honorable people. But the notion of being one of gods people creates enmity. It is a given.

Like I said . . .

On BOTH sides. Sure. Jews were just as capable of stereotyping, ignorance and bigotry as anyone.

Honey, everybody is. This is a news flash? Did I say anything to the contrary?

As I just wrote an hour or so ago. If you go to the Museum of Tolerance there are two doors. One is labeled "those without prejudice" the other "those with prejudice". The former is locked.

Following the Holocaust Jews recognized that they were no better than anyone else and just as capable of the atrocities as the Nazis. The trick to stopping such atrocities is to recognize our human frailties and NOT exalt one group over another.

I see a tangent here and someone is going off it. . .

The "Jews are god's chosen people" can only cause problems in the long run.

Yes, LOL, 'cuz of people like you.

Regardless of the intentions of those who started the nonsense. I say nonsense because I don't believe in god and understanding Human nature and tribalism I'm not convinced that it was purely innocent.

Why did the Jews label themselves "god's chosen"?

Well, you had a chance to find that out but in your will to ignorance you decided your definition was better, so hey, don't ask me!

Was it because god told them they were his chosen? Or was it due to typical human nature and tribalism? Which is the parsimonious answer?

Now gee, if you don't think I know what "apologetics" means, why would you go and use a big word like "parsimonious?." ROF.

 

[RandFan]

Now, why would be you be nasty and doubt that I am ignorant of what "apologetics" means?

Because of your response. If you knew what apologetics meant you would not have responded that way.

Must have hit a nerve there.

I'm not the one who used 2 questions marks and 2 apostrophes.

Yes you did. Or, if it makes you feel better, I certainly think you did.

You thought wrong. If you knew what the word really meant you would not have been offended.

Fine, whad-evah!

You are the one getting testy over a completely appropriate use of the word.

Um, uh, sputter. . .

Oh, that is so intelligent. Is it too much to ask for you to reply in a coherent fashion.

That is so stupid and bigoted that it's not insulting, it's funny! You just proved my point very nicely, thank you veddy much!

Non sequitur. Why do you think that it proves your point? Jews are human. Do you refuse to accept that they could experience tribalism like anyone else?

Yeah, okay. Sure. You go on and believe whatever you like there spiffy.

This to you is argument? Did you by chance look at the definition of gentile?

Archaic. A pagan or heathen.

Would you like being called a heathen?

Honey, everybody is. This is a news flash? Did I say anything to the contrary?

This IS my argument. Yeah, you arguing against it.

I see a tangent here and someone is going off it. . .

You are just attacking me. Why not make a logical argument?

Yes, LOL, 'cuz of people like you.

No turtle, because of people like both you and I.

Well, you had a chance to find that out but in your will to ignorance you decided your definition was better, so hey, don't ask me!

Is it so difficult to answer a simple question? Why did the Jews label themselves "god's chosen"?

Why is that so hard to answer? You have given us an apologetics answer but it really doesn't tell us anything. Jews believe that god told them that. That is BS.

1. Since god did not tell them that where did they get it and why?
   
2. Could tribalism have played a part?
   
3. Do you have the backbone to answer a serious question?[/list=1]
   
   

   Now gee, if you don't think I know what "apologetics" means, why would you go and use a big word like "parsimonious?." ROF.

   I believe that the forum should be a source of education. I'm hoping to get you to look up the word. Did you do it? Have you looked up the word "apologetics" yet?
   
   Would you like for me to include links or definitions to big words?

 

[turtle]

You are the one getting testy over a completely appropriate use of the word.

Neener, neener, you are.

This to you is argument? Did you by chance look at the definition of gentile?

Sweetie, I've been using the word all my life, LOL.

Would you like being called a heathen?

You're a riot. I've actually been called a heathen, and don't mind a bit. I certainly do have my "heathen" days!

You are just attacking me. Why not make a logical argument?

Don't whine. I'm not "attacking" you. I'm calling you on your ridiculous comments.

What? What are you saying? Are you unable to answer a simple question? Why did the Jews label themselves "god's chosen"?

Answered. Can't help it if ya don't wanna accept it.

I believe that the forum should be a source of education. I'm hoping to get you to look up the word. Did you do it? Have you looked up the word "apologetics" yet?

You're assuming I don't know what it means, der.

Do you need any explanations for the words?

No dahling, thanks anyway.

I don't want this thread to turn into yet another ridiculous thread so I'm ignoring you. Unless you care to actually post something that makes sense and is free of snide comments. Otherwise, guess you'll be talking to yourself.

Well, it was a bit interesting while it lasted!

 

[Dr Adequate]

RandFan, you have just met turtle, and that brief encounter tells you everything --- and I mean everything --- you need to know about her.

 

[RandFan]

I don't want this thread to turn into yet another ridiculous thread so I'm ignoring you. Unless you care to actually post something that makes sense and is free of snide comments. Otherwise, guess you'll be talking to yourself.

"Free of snide comments"? Pot calling kettle...

Whatever turtle.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, you have just met turtle, and that brief encounter tells you everything --- and I mean everything --- you need to know about her.

Hey,

I'm going to have to look closer at your posts.

If the wink means that you know what you're saying is stupid, then why not say something smart?

I'm beginning to regret my original statement.

Hey, I'm human. I'll withdraw my original statement but I'll keep all my statements to turtle just to spite her.

 

[turtle]

"Free of snide comments"? Pot calling kettle...

Whatever turtle.

I didn't start off by accusing you of not knowing what words meant, getting off high horses, etc.

Like I told Dr. A, if you're going to fling it, don't be surprised that you get hit when it gets flung back.

Like I also said, it's ovah dahlink!

Now, if you have something to really say about religion etc. great. I love this stuff. If you intend to just start insulting me, you can go to the corner and join Dr. A and compare notes, lol.

 

[RandFan]

I didn't start off by accusing you of not knowing what words meant, getting off high horses, etc.

Your response indicates that you didn't know what the word meant. If you know what a word means then respond accordingly.

Like I told Dr. A, if you're going to fling it, don't be surprised that you get hit when it gets flung back.

Right back at ya. You were the one who got all worked up over a word you apparently don't even know the meaning of.

From a past post of turtle's

No matter how well intended something might be, if someone tells you that they find it offensive, then you should cease.

turtle, I find your claiming to be one of god's chosen people to be offensive. Will you stop?

Like I also said, it's ovah dahlink!

It ain't over if you keep making arguments. I let all of your other snide comments go. It looks like that wasn't good enough so let's keep it going.

Now, if you have something to really say about religion etc. great. I love this stuff. If you intend to just start insulting me, you can go to the corner and join Dr. A and compare notes, lol.

Of course you insulting me is a different matter all together isn't it?

 

[turtle]

Your response indicates that you didn't know what the word meant. If you know what a word means then respond accordingly.

I did.

Right back at ya. You were the one who got all worked up over a word you apparently don't even know the meaning of.

Nope, you did. And do stop lying -- I know perfectly well what all those big time words mean, LOL.

turtle, I find your claiming to be one of god's chosen people to be offensive. Will you stop?

I'm claiming this now? Interesting. . .

Well, since you brought it up, no, lol, I will not stop. Not my problem if you find it offensive. Too bad. I'm not responsible for your reactions.

It ain't over if you keep making arguments. I let all of your other snide comments go. It looks like that wasn't good enough so let's keep it going.

I have no interest in continuing this nonsense. My "snide" comments were not snide, but calling you on your stuff. I said this already. I do so hate repeating myself.

I will tell you -- again -- what I tell anyone else. Don't dish it out, I won't throw it back. Real simple.

Of course you insulting me is a different matter all together isn't it?

If you want to think I insulted you, you go on ahead. Like I said, I didn't start it.

Now.
If you want to discuss religion, great. Otherwise, I'm not interested in this silly pile of poo.
By the way, if you think that gives you license to respond with more insults and snideness, it does not.

 

[RandFan]

I did.

How can you say that? You used 2 quotation markes and 2 apostraphies.

The word is NOT pejorative. You admitted that you thought that I used it that way. But that is YOUR fault not mine.

Apologetics

1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
   
2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.[/list=1]

1. You were making a formal argument in defense of the notion that Jews are gods chosen people. You even quoted material that explains the usage of the word.
   
   There is nothing in any definition that defines the word as pejorative. I will say it again, if you understood the meaning of the word then you would not get offended.
   
   

   Nope, you did.

   Then why did you respond the way you did?
   
   

   Well, since you brought it up, no, lol, I will not stop. Not my problem if you find it offensive. Too bad. I'm not responsible for your reactions.

   Then perhaps Mormons should not stop baptizing dead jews. The are not responsible for their reactions
   
   

   I have no interest in continuing this nonsense. My "snide" comments were not snide, but calling you on your stuff. I said this already. I do so hate repeating myself.

   You are the one who responded emotionally to a perfectly reasonable usage of a word.
   
   

   I will tell you -- again -- what I tell anyone else. Don't dish it out, I won't throw it back. Real simple.

   Right back at ya. You were the one who got upset and sanctimonious over the use of the word appologetics. You claim that you know the meaning but you won't admit that it was a perfectly appropiate use of the word.
   
   

   If you want to think I insulted you, you go on ahead. Like I said, I didn't start it.

   If you want to think that go ahead but it was you who first got upset. I simply used an appropriate word and you responded emotionally.
   
   

   If you want to discuss religion, great. If not, put a sock in it.

   If you want to stop responding then stop.
   
   You remind me of that lady on the commercial "Help, I'm posting on the internet and I can't shut up".
   
   I'm here to stay. I have not done anything wrong. I have responded in a reasonable way. You got upset and sanctimonious and I responded in kind. If you don't like that then don't lash out when you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Kopji]

Scott C Trypal
D&C 132:54 (LDS)
The RLDS don't accept this as 'revelation' so it is not really an issue with them. Was produced several years after by Brigham, so naturally suspect.

RLDS have a different version of the D&C, it diverges from the LDS version. Don't accept the 'Pearl of Great Price' either. I don't claim it is all completely rational or makes logical sense...

Gwyn ap Nudd
I agree with your comments on the parallels between the ◊◊◊◊◊ and Sunni's and other religious divisions being similar. I always thought the differences between Catholic and Protestant was an archetype for what always seems to happen.

Perhaps the nature of religion makes it follow certain patterns.

swstephe

as far as athiests are concerned, it logically doesn't matter what you do to a dead person, it is simply irrelevant. once you are dead, you are just a rotting pile of meat, bone and "juices". you could flush the body of an athiest down a giant toilet, or recycle it into fertilizer, for that matter. but culturally it is in bad taste or whatever.

I disagree with at least some of this. A life can only be judged as 'good' or 'bad' after it is ended. It is somehow important to living a good life in the 'present' to treat those who went before with honor. (I think this is something Aristotle spoke to, and has nothing to do with religion.)

 

[turtle]

<snip>.

The word is NOT pejorative. You admitted that you thought that I used it that way. But that is YOUR fault not mine.

Listen, the way you used it, in my opinion, as I've already said now 400 times, was indeed "perjorative." You disagree. Great. Got it.

Is this your technique? Going on and on about it until the other person gives up and goes away, or ends up agreeing with you just to put an end to it?

You were making a formal argument in defense of the notion that Jews are gods chosen people. You even quoted material that explains the usage of the word.

Yes, I did. And you didn't like that material.

There is nothing in any definition that defines the word as pejorative. I will say it again, if you understood the meaning of the word then you would not get offended.

I know what the words mean. See above.

<snip>

Then perhaps Mormons should not stop baptizing dead jews. The are not responsible for their reactions

That's an intelligent comment. (that was sarcasm, btw)

You are the one who responded emotionally to a perfectly reasonable usage of a word.

I get that you think it was reasonable. Understood.

Right back at ya. You were the one who got upset and sanctimonious over the use of the word appologetics. You claim that you know the meaning but you won't admit that it was a perfectly appropiate use of the word.

It wasn't an "appropriate use of the word."

If you want to think that go ahead but it was you who first got upset. I simply used an appropriate word and you responded emotionally.

Didn't.

If you want to stop responding then stop.

I told ya: you don't have a license. YOU stop, ha!

You remind me of that lady on the commercial "Help, I'm posting on the internet and I can't shut up".

Har. Har. Same to you kid.

I'm here to stay. I have not done anything wrong.

??? wtf? Who said you're not here to stay, and who said you did anything "wrong?" Did I imply you should go somewhere?

I have responded in a reasonable way.

Well, that's up for debate, but fine.

You got upset and sanctimonious and I responded in kind.

As did I.

If you don't like that then don't lash out when you don't know what you are talking about.

What I don't like are ignorant people hiding behind words to disguise their agendas. What I don't like are people being snide. What I don't like is people going on and ON about the same thing.

And believe me, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Now. I've said all this already, but I'll say it one last time: discuss religion, or stop playing in the sandbox. It won't do you any good, because if the next post I see from you is just more of the same baloney, it won't go anywhere, unless you like talking to yourself.

 

[RandFan]

Listen, the way you used it, in my opinion, as I've already said now 400 times, was indeed "perjorative." You disagree. Great. Got it.

There is nothing with which to disagree with. They were my words and there was nothing for you to confuse them for. Unless you can read my mind this is not a point of disagreement.

Is this your technique? Going on and on about it until the other person gives up and goes away, or ends up agreeing with you just to put an end to it?

I tried to let it go. You wouldn't let it go.

Yes, I did. And you didn't like that material.

I neither liked nor disliked the material. I found that it was simply an explanation that didn't really explain away something that others found objectionable. Remember, according to you the intent does not matter.

I know what the words mean. See above.

But you did get offended which only demonstrates that you didn't understand the meaning of the word.

a little turtle logic anyone?

turtle

No matter how well intended something might be, if someone tells you that they find it offensive, then you should cease

RandFan
turtle, I find your claiming to be one of god's chosen people to be offensive. Will you stop?

turtle
Well, since you brought it up, no, lol, I will not stop. Not my problem if you find it offensive. Too bad. I'm not responsible for your reactions.

RandFan
Then perhaps Mormons should not stop baptizing dead Jews. The are not responsible for their reactions

turtle
That's an intelligent comment. (that was sarcasm, btw)

So you thought that statement was stupid? I simply repeated YOUR statement. If you find it is stupid then perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Apparently everyone is supposed to care about your feelings but you don't care about anyone else's.

It wasn't an "appropriate use of the word."

I gave you foundation. I gave you the definition. Please justify your statement.

Same to you kid.

Not quite. I'm not complaining about it. You are the one asking me to stop. I don't care either way.

Who said you're not here to stay, and who said you did anything "wrong?" Did I imply you should go somewhere?

It is a figure of speech. you said;

If not, put a sock in it.

What I meant is that I'm not going to put a sock in it.

What I don't like are ignorant people hiding behind words to disguise their agendas.

And what agenda do I have? Are you a mind reader?

What I don't like are people being snide.

Pot calling kettle...pot calling kettle.

What I don't like is people going on and ON about the same thing.

Then why do you go on and on about the same thing?

And believe me, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Well good for you. Go to the pharmacy or office supply store and get some of those gold stars and then put one on your forehead. 'k?

Now. I've said all this already, but I'll say it one last time: discuss religion, or stop playing in the sandbox.

You are right here in the sandbox besides me. As my mom says, "it takes two to tango". If you are so mature and sophisticated then stop posting. I continue because I have not done anything wrong.

Look, a few posts back I gave you an opportunity to let the whole thing drop. I didn't respond to your post. But YOU wouldn't let it go. So go look in the mirror. You are like a petulant child throwing rocks and complaining that the other kids won't stop. Grow up.

It won't do you any good, because if the next post I see from you is just more of the same baloney, it won't go anywhere, unless you like talking to yourself.

It won't bother me one bit.

I haven't done anything wrong. You have wrongly accused me of something that I have not done. You then acted like a child and got really snide. I responded in kind. Now you don't like that, Tough, I won't give into your bullying.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'm ignoring you.

Originally posted by turtle half an hour later
Like I also said, it's ovah dahlink!

Originally posted by turtle about half an hour after that
I'm not interested in this silly pile of poo.

Originally posted by turtle a couple of hours after that
What I don't like is people going on and ON about the same thing.

And believe me, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[H3LL]

This has been an interesting and informative thread and has got me reading more on a subject I new little about.

Thank you all, with the exception of Turtle. Reading Turtle's posts has a negative impact on the quality of all human wisdom.

 

[turtle]

I tried to let it go. You wouldn't let it go.

Then why do you go on and on about the same thing?

<snip>

You are right here in the sandbox besides me. As my mom says, "it takes two to tango". If you are so mature and sophisticated then stop posting. I continue because I have not done anything wrong.

Look, a few posts back I gave you an opportunity to let the whole thing drop. I didn't respond to your post. But YOU wouldn't let it go. So go look in the mirror. You are like a petulant child throwing rocks and complaining that the other kids won't stop. Grow up.

I haven't done anything wrong.

You have wrongly accused me of something that I have not done. You then acted like a child and got really snide. I responded in kind. Now you don't like that, Tough, I won't give into your bullying.

Another one on the old ignore list. . . oh well

 

[turtle]

This has been an interesting and informative thread and has got me reading more on a subject I new little about.

Thank you all, with the exception of Turtle. Reading Turtle's posts has a negative impact on the quality of all human wisdom.

Another Randi skeptic who believes it's okay for them to act like thugs, but not anyone else I see. I'm used to it by now, not to worry.