What did Democrats do wrong?

[ahhell]

Came across an interesting post about the "representation gap" between voters and legislators on immigration issues today:

A boring theory of the populist right

A large minority of the public wants tougher policies on crime and immigration

www.slowboring.com

I think it should be viewable without a subscription, but I'm not entirely sure.

In that post, the author attempts to apply the lessons of this new paper to the U.S., which sounds like a leap but the author of the original paper did say he was seeing similar effects on "nearly all cultural issues...in nearly all countries" studied.

On [cultural] questions, incumbent M.P.s are significantly to the left of the population average. Or maybe a better way to think about this is that in most countries, there is a large minority bloc of voters with extreme right-wing views that are echoed by few if any M.P.s, especially from mainstream parties.​

​

In proportional systems, that creates an easy space for new parties to fill. In the U.S., it created space for Donald Trump to remake the G.O.P. I don’t think “the center-left should become more right-wing on crime and immigration” is the only possible conclusion to draw from this data, but I think that everyone ought to take the data seriously and consider the tradeoffs involved in their own choices.​

Many will say Democrats need to hold their ground on cultural questions, even if this causes them to drift ever further towards the purist stances of lefty activist groups and further away from the views of median voters. On this point, I must remain skeptical.

This reminds of a couple of things. A line from someone I don't remember was something like, "If responsible people don't deal with immigration, irresponsible people will." For decades in the US at least and I think most of europe, immigration has been much less popular among the general population than among politicians. That's a tension that can only last so long. The thing I heard some pundit say is that part of the opposition to immigration is due to the perception that its chaotic and uncontrolled. I don't think its a coincidence that immigration seems to be much less of an issue in Canada than most other western countries. They have quite a bit but it's also clearly well controlled and generally rational.

One last thing, the left has to be more flexible on more issues. Today on the US right, you only have to agree on one thing, Trump is awesome. On the left there are a lot of folks seem to demand that you are fully on board with a whole bunch of issues. That's a problem for the Dems.

 

[Susheel]

At some point the NYT will promote a centre right Democrat as a "candidate who will work with "sensible" conservatives, a general pr campaign against more progressive candidates as "socialist" (in quotes to represent the chimeric beast the conservatives has imagined for themselves, not anything real) and they will sabotage their chances in the primaries. I have a feeling that they will do it with Mamdani.

 

[The Don]

W.r.t. immigration IMO there are a lot of vested interests out there that want to proliferate the lies about immigration and immigrants and it's very difficult to counter this - especially when people don't like change and immigration inevitably leads to change.

In the UK a sizeable minority of people think the country is beyond full and no argument will sway them. They want a freeze on immigration and if possible wide scale repatriation so that the UK can return to some rose-tinted ideal that never existed. I'm not sure these people can be educated to change their views (in the same way that, despite decades of evidence to the contrary, I think Middlesbrough FC are a football team worth supporting).

Maybe Canada is doing it right, maybe Canada has a critical mass of immigrants so they can sway opinion or maybe if you scratch the surface those same reactionary and xenophobic views are there, you just don't have a right wing press and media sphere to amplify them. If you look at the BBC coverage you'd think that Reform UK Ltd were the government instead of having 5 seats. The Green Party's views on immigration aren't the lead on every newscast and they have the same parliamentary representation.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

W.r.t. immigration IMO there are a lot of vested interests out there that want to proliferate the lies about immigration and immigrants and it's very difficult to counter this - especially when people don't like change and immigration inevitably leads to change.

In the UK a sizeable minority of people think the country is beyond full and no argument will sway them. They want a freeze on immigration and if possible wide scale repatriation so that the UK can return to some rose-tinted ideal that never existed. I'm not sure these people can be educated to change their views (in the same way that, despite decades of evidence to the contrary, I think Middlesbrough FC are a football team worth supporting).

Maybe Canada is doing it right, maybe Canada has a critical mass of immigrants so they can sway opinion or maybe if you scratch the surface those same reactionary and xenophobic views are there, you just don't have a right wing press and media sphere to amplify them. If you look at the BBC coverage you'd think that Reform UK Ltd were the government instead of having 5 seats. The Green Party's views on immigration aren't the lead on every newscast and they have the same parliamentary representation.

It's interesting how much overlap there is between the people promoting the anti-immigration rhetoric (and their backers) and the people who benefit from immigration, whether through the availability of labour it provides and the depressing effect it can have on wages or because their entire public life is based on complaining about it. It's almost like they want the cheap labour but want to make sure their workers remain divided and angry at each other rather than look at the cause of the real problems in their lives.

 

[d4m10n]

The thing I heard some pundit say is that part of the opposition to immigration is due to the perception that its chaotic and uncontrolled.

My sense of it from the local xenophobes is that they are afraid foreigners will bring social norms from foreign cultures (e.g. burkinis instead of bikinis) but of course that's a silly notion which we can easily ignore.

 

[Helen]

I will never understand why the "patriots" seem to think that immigrants who come to Western countries will want to change our culture and values; if our culture is as good as the "patriots" keep insisting it is, why wouldn't the immigrants want to adopt it? I certainly think they will, and do. If I were to judge based on past experience here, they tend to keep bits of their own cultures - food, the arts etc - and allow them to merge with ours, and adopt many of our democratic, liberal, secular values.

 

[johnny karate]

There's no big mystery here. It's racism.

 

[ahhell]

Well, its not just westerners. Xeno-phobia is practically universal. Not in the sense that all people are xenophobic but that there are xenophobe among all cultures and most nations.

@Helen, do you live near any heavily immigrant neighborhoods? I get that it takes time to assimilate but you must realize anyone can point to Miami and say, "See they don't even want to learn english!"

Part of the problem in pretty the entire West is the leadership can't understand the public on this. Your average rich or uppermiddle class person gets nothing but upsides from large scale immigration. Cheap goods and services with no apparent change to their neighborhoods and no impact to the schools their kids go to.

Someone complains about their kids going to a school where half the kids are ESL or about the stores and restaurants changing in their neighborhoods and all they get from the left is, stop being racist. That is, unless its a person of color complaining about the culture and character of their neighborhood changing then its gentrification and a bad thing.

I'm generally pro-immigration but if all you do in response to folks who don't like it as much as you is call them names, well they are going to vote for someone else. I know, many folks don't want the votes of racists. Ok, but the left will keep losing elections.

I'd be fine with that but the alternative seems to be MAGA and not liberals.

 

[Helen]

I am aware of some of the problems immigration causes. I am also aware of some of the underlying reasons for zenophobia. Most racists are like Trump, tho, in that every accusation is a confession.

And as I said, understanding is not necessarily excusing; some racists, including some of our homegrown ones express the kind of views and ideas that make them undeservong of anything but namecalling.

I do not think intolerance usually deserves to be treated with tolerance.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I am aware of some of the problems immigration causes. I am also aware of some of the underlying reasons for
zenophobia. Most racists are like Trump, tho, in that every accusation is a confession.

And as I said, understanding is not necessarily excusing; some racists, including some of our homegrown ones express the kind of views and ideas that make them undeservong of anything but namecalling.

I do not think intolerance usually deserves to be treated with tolerance.

An irrational fear of Buddists?

 

[johnny karate]

Well, its not just westerners. Xeno-phobia is practically universal. Not in the sense that all people are xenophobic but that there are xenophobe among all cultures and most nations.

@Helen, do you live near any heavily immigrant neighborhoods? I get that it takes time to assimilate but you must realize anyone can point to Miami and say, "See they don't even want to learn english!"

Part of the problem in pretty the entire West is the leadership can't understand the public on this. Your average rich or uppermiddle class person gets nothing but upsides from large scale immigration. Cheap goods and services with no apparent change to their neighborhoods and no impact to the schools their kids go to.

Someone complains about their kids going to a school where half the kids are ESL or about the stores and restaurants changing in their neighborhoods and all they get from the left is, stop being racist. That is, unless its a person of color complaining about the culture and character of their neighborhood changing then its gentrification and a bad thing.

I'm generally pro-immigration but if all you do in response to folks who don't like it as much as you is call them names, well they are going to vote for someone else. I know, many folks don't want the votes of racists. Ok, but the left will keep losing elections.

I'd be fine with that but the alternative seems to be MAGA and not liberals.

Brown-skinned people are literally being kidnapped off the street by masked government thugs.

It's racism.

 

[Helen]

An irrational fear of Buddists?

I can neither read nor write, and I can certainly not proofread; I read what I know it should say, not what it actually says.

Anyways, I was saying something very clever about turtles and hares, and stuff. But you wouldn't understand.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I lived in Southall for a while, that's about as immigrant heavy as it gets. It was pretty cool actually, and loads of amazing food.

 

[Random]

An irrational fear of Buddists?

No. "Zenophobia" is an irrational fear of arrows and other missiles.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

No. "Zenophobia" is an irrational fear of arrows and other missiles.

And tortoises?

 

[d4m10n]

I will never understand why the "patriots" seem to think that immigrants who come to Western countries will want to change our culture and values; if our culture is as good as the "patriots" keep insisting it is, why wouldn't the immigrants want to adopt it?

Progressives insist that the culture and values of the native peoples were pretty good, too, but it's really hard to find a hand-sewn pair of moccasins even here in Oklahoma. Presumably the "patriots" of which you speak are afraid that an influx of new peoples would do to their culture what their own culture did to earlier ones.

 

[Hercules56]

I will never understand why the "patriots" seem to think that immigrants who come to Western countries will want to change our culture and values; if our culture is as good as the "patriots" keep insisting it is, why wouldn't the immigrants want to adopt it? I certainly think they will, and do. If I were to judge based on past experience here, they tend to keep bits of their own cultures - food, the arts etc - and allow them to merge with ours, and adopt many of our democratic, liberal, secular values.

I think one of the problems is that many people are aware of the extremely tight immigration policies in China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. Much of South America and Africa. And they wonder why those countries are allowed to be very restrictive in immigration in order to preserve their national heritage and culture, etc..... but for some reason such things are not allowed in the White West?

Personally I think former colonial majority White nations like Canada and the USA and Australia and New Zealand have no business limiting themselves to just white people, considering that the land used to be majority POC before the white folk stole it. But when it comes to Europe I don't think there is anything wrong with immigration policy that tries to make sure their nation state majority status is not threatened. If it's okay for Japan to do it it's okay for England.

But I do think every nation should do its utmost to have a generous asylum policy for people seeking shelter and help.

 

[Susheel]

No. "Zenophobia" is an irrational fear of arrows and other missiles.

Such fear would be entirely rational...

 

[dirtywick]

culture is constantly changing

 

[Olmstead]

I think one of the problems is that many people are aware of the extremely tight immigration policies in China, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. Much of South America and Africa. And they wonder why those countries are allowed to be very restrictive in immigration in order to preserve their national heritage and culture, etc..... but for some reason such things are not allowed in the White West?

Personally I think former colonial majority White nations like Canada and the USA and Australia and New Zealand have no business limiting themselves to just white people, considering that the land used to be majority POC before the white folk stole it. But when it comes to Europe I don't think there is anything wrong with immigration policy that tries to make sure their nation state majority status is not threatened. If it's okay for Japan to do it it's okay for England.

But I do think every nation should do its utmost to have a generous asylum policy for people seeking shelter and help.

Because of course Europe is known to be a place where no land was ever wrongfully appropriated.