What did Democrats do wrong?

[dirtywick]

So, the change you like then.

probably. i don’t think it’s that complicated.

 

[ahhell]

probably. i don’t think it’s that complicated.

Here's the thing. I don't think you need to racist to be uncomfortable with change. I think leadership in the most countries only experiences the positive side of immigration. I agree for the most part it is mostly positive but there are negative consequences. Schools with a large percentage of kids that don't speak the language of country in question for instance. That's not going to be the fancy private school or public school in the fancy area. They aren't living in neighborhoods where 20 years ago there weren't a lot of immigrants speaking a foreign language. And the response to the folks complaining about this as mostly been, "shut you racist!" Those folks are going to look elsewhere for leadership.

The Dems and various center parties in the world can kvetch about the racism but that's not going to get them votes. They need to figure out how to deal with that obvious reaction their policies. The GOP leadership had basically the same attitude towards immigration as the Dems and they all got blindsided by Trump. He basically did the opposite of what the famous 2012 post mortem recommended.

6 Big Takeaways From The RNC’s Incredible 2012 Autopsy

President Obama’s campaign staff boasted throughout the 2012 race that the GOP’s...

talkingpointsmemo.com

The most ironic is number 2. Listen to minorities. He's done better with minorities than any republican since the depression.

This is what most bothers me about the "Its racism" response.
A. Fine, what if it is? You still lost the majority of the vote.
B. Trump is doing better with minorities than any republican in god knows how long. If they can overlook his racism, maybe you should consider overlooking Joe the Plummer's if you can get his vote for some other reason. That was FDRs coalition. Northern Immigrants, Southern Blacks, and Southern Racists.

Worst thing from the last couple of election, aside from Trump winning was Biden getting excoriated for saying he had worked with deplorable racists to get good legislations. Everyone forgets, the original progressives were mostly a bunch or Racists.

 

[dirtywick]

i guess i don’t understand the negatives of people speaking foreign languages. if you’re uncomfortable with that, i’m sorry but a political party feeding into that and making it seem negative and scary to manipulate you into voting for them is seems awfully racist to me.

i agree the dems could be better at trying to peel voters back into a more rational and reasonable place with immigration. but that discussion needs to happen in the framework under making people less xenophobic, not where we pretend it’s not imo

 

[ahhell]

i guess i don’t understand the negatives of people speaking foreign languages. if you’re uncomfortable with that, i’m sorry but a political party feeding into that and making it seem negative and scary to manipulate you into voting for them is seems awfully racist to me.

i agree the dems could be better at trying to peel voters back into a more rational and reasonable place with immigration. but that discussion needs to happen in the framework under making people less xenophobic, not where we pretend it’s not imo

You can't at all empathize with someone who's lived in a place their whole life and sees it completely change and finds that disconcerting? The go to grocery they've always gone to and have trouble communicating with the clerk and find that disconcerting? You don't see anything that would cause a strain on resources in say a school with a large population of students who don't speak the common language?

 

[johnny karate]

Here's the thing. I don't think you need to racist to be uncomfortable with change. I think leadership in the most countries only experiences the positive side of immigration. I agree for the most part it is mostly positive but there are negative consequences. Schools with a large percentage of kids that don't speak the language of country in question for instance. That's not going to be the fancy private school or public school in the fancy area. They aren't living in neighborhoods where 20 years ago there weren't a lot of immigrants speaking a foreign language. And the response to the folks complaining about this as mostly been, "shut you racist!" Those folks are going to look elsewhere for leadership.

The Dems and various center parties in the world can kvetch about the racism but that's not going to get them votes. They need to figure out how to deal with that obvious reaction their policies. The GOP leadership had basically the same attitude towards immigration as the Dems and they all got blindsided by Trump. He basically did the opposite of what the famous 2012 post mortem recommended.

6 Big Takeaways From The RNC’s Incredible 2012 Autopsy

President Obama’s campaign staff boasted throughout the 2012 race that the GOP’s...

talkingpointsmemo.com

The most ironic is number 2. Listen to minorities. He's done better with minorities than any republican since the depression.

This is what most bothers me about the "Its racism" response.
A. Fine, what if it is? You still lost the majority of the vote.
B. Trump is doing better with minorities than any republican in god knows how long. If they can overlook his racism, maybe you should consider overlooking Joe the Plummer's if you can get his vote for some other reason. That was FDRs coalition. Northern Immigrants, Southern Blacks, and Southern Racists.

Worst thing from the last couple of election, aside from Trump winning was Biden getting excoriated for saying he had worked with deplorable racists to get good legislations. Everyone forgets, the original progressives were mostly a bunch or Racists.

Well, first of all:
Donald Trump's Popularity With Hispanics Plummets: Survey

Donald Trump's Approval Rating Collapses With Black Voters

Oops. There’s goes the “Some of my best friends are Black” defense.

But I enjoyed your evolution from righteous indignation to “Yeah, it’s probably racist but tough ◊◊◊◊”.

I guess when one find themselves ideologically aligned with people who are illegally grabbing minorities off the street and sending them to torture prisons, they’ve got to rationalize it somehow so they can sleep at night.

 

[dirtywick]

You can't at all empathize with someone who's lived in a place their whole life and sees it completely change and finds that disconcerting? The go to grocery they've always gone to and have trouble communicating with the clerk and find that disconcerting? You don't see anything that would cause a strain on resources in say a school with a large population of students who don't speak the common language?

i can empathize, but it’s irrational. therefore it’s also wrong to feed into that irrational feeling to manipulate them

 

[P.J. Denyer]

i guess i don’t understand the negatives of people speaking foreign languages. if you’re uncomfortable with that, i’m sorry but a political party feeding into that and making it seem negative and scary to manipulate you into voting for them is seems awfully racist to me.

i agree the dems could be better at trying to peel voters back into a more rational and reasonable place with immigration. but that discussion needs to happen in the framework under making people less xenophobic, not where we pretend it’s not imo

I see the negatives of having large number of people in the country who don't speak the native most commonly spoken language, but there are ways to address that and in the UK at least the people who complain most vocally about people who "won't learn the language" correlate strongly with people who oppose services for migrants such as free/subsidised English lessons.

ETA: They also tend to be the people who don't understand that people who come from an English speaking foreign country (say a former colony) might prefer to settle in an English speaking country such as, say, England, rather than France.

 

[johnny karate]

You can't at all empathize with someone who's lived in a place their whole life and sees it completely change and finds that disconcerting? The go to grocery they've always gone to and have trouble communicating with the clerk and find that disconcerting? You don't see anything that would cause a strain on resources in say a school with a large population of students who don't speak the common language?

I find it much easier to empathize with someone who is renditioned by a fascist regime than the racist who voted for that to happen to them because they don’t like hearing people speak Spanish.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

You can't at all empathize with someone who's lived in a place their whole life and sees it completely change and finds that disconcerting? The go to grocery they've always gone to and have trouble communicating with the clerk and find that disconcerting? You don't see anything that would cause a strain on resources in say a school with a large population of students who don't speak the common language?

Oh, I can empathize.

In Tennessee a few years ago, a supermarket checkout person asked to see my ID.

"I'm paying cash."

"I need to see your ID."

"Why?"

"For the bear."

"What bear?"

"I can't give you the bear unless you show me your ID."

"I don't want a bear. I just want to pay for these groceries."

"I'm going to call security."

At that point, I just threw up my hands and walked out, leaving the store to re-shelve the groceries I wanted to buy. I went to a different supermarket, where much the same thing happened at checkout, except the checkout person was a lot better at explaining the problem.

It turns out that, in Nashville, "beer" is pronounced "bear".

 

[Resume]

Oh, I can empathize.

In Tennessee a few years ago, a supermarket checkout person asked to see my ID.

"I'm paying cash."

"I need to see your ID."

"Why?"

"For the bear."

"What bear?"

"I can't give you the bear unless you show me your ID."

"I don't want a bear. I just want to pay for these groceries."

"I'm going to call security."

At that point, I just threw up my hands and walked out, leaving the store to re-shelve the groceries I wanted to buy. I went to a different supermarket, where much the same thing happened at checkout, except the checkout person was a lot better at explaining the problem.

It turns out that, in Nashville, "beer" is pronounced "bear".

Oh boy.

 

[dirtywick]

I see the negatives of having large number of people in the country who don't speak the native most commonly spoken language, but there are ways to address that and in the UK at least the people who complain most vocally about people who "won't learn the language" correlate strongly with people who oppose services for migrants such as free/subsidised English lessons.

ETA: They also tend to be the people who don't understand that people who come from an English speaking foreign country (say a former colony) might prefer to settle in an English speaking country such as, say, England, rather than France.

i live in a city that was one of the "sanctuary" cities for the hmong after vietnam. most of the first generation barely spoke english, most of the younger ones do and so on. most all of them tried to learn enough to get by.

what they didn't do is stop speaking hmong.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

i live in a city that was one of the "sanctuary" cities for the hmong after vietnam. most of the first generation barely spoke english, most of the younger ones do and so on. most all of them tried to learn enough to get by.

what they didn't do is stop speaking hmong.

Yes, I don't see the problem with people speaking multiple languages, infact I can see considerable upside.

 

[The Don]

Yes, I don't see the problem with people speaking multiple languages, infact I can see considerable upside.

That's because you're a feckless libtard cuck.

OTOH real men want people to only speak god's language, English - ideally English with a simple enough vocabulary that they're can be sure that the interlocutor isn't making fun of them.

 

[dirtywick]

Yes, I don't see the problem with people speaking multiple languages, infact I can see considerable upside.

i agree, they have community centers, and asian stores, they sell eggrolls at my job. they have their festivals and events, different wedding and funeral traditions, blah blah blah. they also are very insular, slaughter cows and chickens, speak their own language, bring family over from their countries, send money back, all the scary stuff.

imo it's nothing to get worked up about.

 

[ahhell]

Yes, I don't see the problem with people speaking multiple languages, infact I can see considerable upside.

Sure, a single person speaking multiple languages, great. A bunch of people speaking different languages, great? Or a bunch of folks that can't communicate well with each other?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Sure, a single person speaking multiple languages, great. A bunch of people speaking different languages, great? Or a bunch of folks that can't communicate well with each other?

I've already addressed that

 

[The Don]

Sure, a single person speaking multiple languages, great. A bunch of people speaking different languages, great? Or a bunch of folks that can't communicate well with each other?

My reading of P. J. Denyer's post was that they considered speaking multiple languages including the local default is a good thing - I may have projected my own bias onto their words.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

My reading of P. J. Denyer's post was that they considered speaking multiple languages including the local default is a good thing - I may have projected my own bias onto their words.

Yep, thank you. I've also said that not speaking the local default is a bad thing but pointed out that, in the UK at least, the people most outraged by it also oppose measures to rectify the situation through free or affordable English lessons.

 

[The Don]

Yep, thank you. I've also said that not speaking the local default is a bad thing but pointed out that, in the UK at least, the people most outraged by it also oppose measures to rectify the situation through free or affordable English lessons.

Of course we don't want "them" to speak English, we want them to **** off back to Bongo Bongo Land where they came from.

We want England to return to what it used to be, almost exclusively white (apart from a few Indian and Chinese restauranteurs/takeaway owners) and Anglophone (and that includes you Micks, Jocks, and Taffies who pretend to speak your own gobbledygook) just like it was back in the.... erm...

Of course Britain (or more accurately England) hasn't been like that within the lifetime of anyone alive today. The Italians who came to Luton, the Poles in Bristol, the successive waves into London, it's always been change and the reactionaries and xenophobes hate it.

 

[ahhell]

That's all fine and good, it's just a bunch of racists listening to evil propaganda. What do you do with that, knowing that possibly the majority of voters or at least a large minority are a bunch of racists? Do you think, calling them a bunch or racists is actually going to help advance policies you want?

Personally, I think it's a bit more complicated than that.