NoahFence
Banned
How do we make the leap from:
to
One of these things is not like the other [/Sesame Street]
Fitz
No confusion.
It's simply the method of a liar.
- Status
No confusion.
It's simply the method of a liar.
TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
[bull ****]
nounin your attempt to evade the question, you replied with utter bull ****.
The whole recent exchange has become nothing less than surreal.
Even more surreal is that I got an email earlier from The Retired Greyhounds (note - not their human helpers, the greyhounds themselves). It's copied below, with their permission:
Dear GlennB,
Many thanks for your ten quid donation earlier. Some new arrivals had fleas and your tenner will relieve their itching.
Now, people take us for intelligent dogs, but they don't know the half of it. We surf the internet (with, most regrettably, the help of cats who have more nimble paws than us) and follow anything greyhound-ish.
And our reading comprehension is excellent, so we followed your interchange with this MM person. We couldn't help noticing a few strange things, including (but not limited to) the following:
He said: Shortly after 2 WTC was attacked at 9:02 am Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM;
You objected, pointing out it was probably some 30 minutes from that time to the time of their arrival at the OEM, giving sound reasons.
He replied: I never said that Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM at 9:02 am.
We note that you never made the claim MM is denying.
You said: "you know what they had to do to get from the bridge to the OEM, a likely 30-minute trip. 5 minutes later he was ordered to evacuate. "
He replied: A 30 minute trip for two emergency responders, on the run, from a location (not on the Brooklyn Bridge), after the second WTC tower had been hit, is nothing more than a lie
We note, again, you were explicitly talking about the time from the bridge, not the parking spot by the Chapel.
He re-posted a smaller section of a map you had already posted, after you explained why you were posting it. Weird.
We have "staffers' at all our dogs' homes, and we have volunteers and professionals who come in from time to time. We know which are the "staffers" and which are not, and we're just dimbulb dogs. There is no confusion (for us, anyway).
Now, GlennB, here's the deal. Let's call it a freebie if you quote this, but hereafter it's strictly a tenner a response. 10 per day is a cool 3650 or so p.a., and that's a tidy sum (we can do arithmetic too). It'll sort out Laughing Boy's claw prob, Zippy Zoe's bad teeth and King Zeus's tendency to mount any furry animal even though he's been denuded of his 'nads (not such a terrible thing, except it extends to hairy humans. He needs professional counselling) and much else.
Best regards,
Compton Chairman (retired greyhound)
p.s. thanks to the cats for the nifty formatting, but they're also to blame for any typos.
Even more surreal is that I got an email earlier from The Retired Greyhounds (note - not their human helpers, the greyhounds themselves). It's copied below, with their permission:
Dear GlennB,
Many thanks for your ten quid donation earlier. Some new arrivals had fleas and your tenner will relieve their itching.
Now, people take us for intelligent dogs, but they don't know the half of it. We surf the internet (with, most regrettably, the help of cats who have more nimble paws than us) and follow anything greyhound-ish.
And our reading comprehension is excellent, so we followed your interchange with this MM person. We couldn't help noticing a few strange things, including (but not limited to) the following:
He said: Shortly after 2 WTC was attacked at 9:02 am Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM;
You objected, pointing out it was probably some 30 minutes from that time to the time of their arrival at the OEM, giving sound reasons.
He replied: I never said that Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM at 9:02 am.
We note that you never made the claim MM is denying.
You said: "you know what they had to do to get from the bridge to the OEM, a likely 30-minute trip. 5 minutes later he was ordered to evacuate. "
He replied: A 30 minute trip for two emergency responders, on the run, from a location (not on the Brooklyn Bridge), after the second WTC tower had been hit, is nothing more than a lie
We note, again, you were explicitly talking about the time from the bridge, not the parking spot by the Chapel.
He re-posted a smaller section of a map you had already posted, after you explained why you were posting it. Weird.
We have "staffers' at all our dogs' homes, and we have volunteers and professionals who come in from time to time. We know which are the "staffers" and which are not, and we're just dimbulb dogs. There is no confusion (for us, anyway).
Now, GlennB, here's the deal. Let's call it a freebie if you quote this, but hereafter it's strictly a tenner a response. 10 per day is a cool 3650 or so p.a., and that's a tidy sum (we can do arithmetic too). It'll sort out Laughing Boy's claw prob, Zippy Zoe's bad teeth and King Zeus's tendency to mount any furry animal even though he's been denuded of his 'nads (not such a terrible thing, except it extends to hairy humans. He needs professional counselling) and much else.
Best regards,
Compton Chairman (retired greyhound)
p.s. thanks to the cats for the nifty formatting, but they're also to blame for any typos.
Last edited:
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Falling back on semantics now MM?
No mention of the supposed second and third clouds of choking dust, no mention of the enveloping darkness experienced by every single person caught in it, no mention of this massive dust cloud occurring in conjunction with the firefighters leaving the area, no mention of the severe shaking of the structure as large columns were being ripped from the building.
Are we to believe the ridiculous , Wile E. Coyote physics style argument that unless one sees how something comes about it has no effect?
I've found an interesting bit from the MFR of the interview of Catalano (http://research.archives.gov/description/2609722):
(highlights in yellow, my comments in blue )
(highlights in yellow, my comments in blue )
He was in the hallway when the second plane was hit. He walked down the stairs and people were already evacuating on their own in an orderly fashion. He went to the lobby and spoke with Marty M. who worked for Silverstein and suggested forcefully that an evacuation was necessary. The Silverstein guy said it was not necessary because the event was across the street. After a heated exchange, the Silverstein guy agreed to call an evacuation (after the second plane hit, before the tower fell). [pg: The timeline is a bit unclear here, as all we know is it's between 9:03 and 9:59. But given that what the next paragraph says would take a good while, I tend to agree that the decision to evacuate was taken not long after the second impact. Decision does not mean the order was issued immediately. Catalano seems to imply it followed immediately, but it's not obvious to me. He may want to emphasize that the result of his insistence was that more people could escape safely, and mention both together for that reason.]
Mike said that he was assisting in setting up a triage center on the loading dock with stuff from the SSB fitness room but no one came. He was out on Vesey Street helping set this up when he was told to call Ed Campbell, the head of the building. He walked inside to call him and the tower fell. There were 6 people at the phone center and they all lay on the floor while the building shook. It sounded like a missile or an earthquake ... twisting metal he thought. The vents on the top of the building and on the 5th floor sucked in the air and jammed the generators and caused them to burn. [pg: That's a good reason for the soot and difficulty to breath in the stairways that Hess reported, proving their descent happened after WTC2 collapsed.]
He went to the 4th floor cafeteria where he knew there was an emergency door. In fact, there were two emergency exits. The one door had a broken handle so it couldn't be used. The other door, when opened was full of fire and smoke (colored). He also looked out the window to see if they could jump onto the ConEd building but there was a huge fire there [pg: ConEd in fire? That's new for me. Why would that be? A transformer blown up, perchance? That would explain the explosion in that video from Stories from the City. Or maybe that means the fire was in the windows below him.] . So they chose to wrap their heads in wet towels and make the escape through the smoky stairwell. The stairwell was below the generators that were burning. They went through the stairwell and made it to the street. They climbed up to Barclay Street when the second tower fell and chased them through the streets. He said large debris, the size of buses, was following them down the street.
He said the generators automatically went on for 27 minutes when the building shakes. So once the first tower fell and the smoke cleared, the building was lit. [pg: The "flicker" in the lights, probably. 27 minutes happens to be the time between both collapses. ETA: And also explains why and when everything went completely dark as Hess reported.] He said there were no tunnels out of WTC7 in spite of reports. He said the city people were the first to evacuate. He said that the repeater system worked perfectly and their radios were blaring the entire time. Unfortunately, there is no tape of those calls.
Mike said that WTC7 would have collapsed even if the other towers had not collapsed because of the fires. [pg: Catalano was an engineer. Maybe he was the "engineer who predicted the building would fall"?] He said there were 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel and 20,000 gallons of coolant. This was a huge fire. [pg: Coolant? That's new to me.]
Mike said that he was assisting in setting up a triage center on the loading dock with stuff from the SSB fitness room but no one came. He was out on Vesey Street helping set this up when he was told to call Ed Campbell, the head of the building. He walked inside to call him and the tower fell. There were 6 people at the phone center and they all lay on the floor while the building shook. It sounded like a missile or an earthquake ... twisting metal he thought. The vents on the top of the building and on the 5th floor sucked in the air and jammed the generators and caused them to burn. [pg: That's a good reason for the soot and difficulty to breath in the stairways that Hess reported, proving their descent happened after WTC2 collapsed.]
He went to the 4th floor cafeteria where he knew there was an emergency door. In fact, there were two emergency exits. The one door had a broken handle so it couldn't be used. The other door, when opened was full of fire and smoke (colored). He also looked out the window to see if they could jump onto the ConEd building but there was a huge fire there [pg: ConEd in fire? That's new for me. Why would that be? A transformer blown up, perchance? That would explain the explosion in that video from Stories from the City. Or maybe that means the fire was in the windows below him.] . So they chose to wrap their heads in wet towels and make the escape through the smoky stairwell. The stairwell was below the generators that were burning. They went through the stairwell and made it to the street. They climbed up to Barclay Street when the second tower fell and chased them through the streets. He said large debris, the size of buses, was following them down the street.
He said the generators automatically went on for 27 minutes when the building shakes. So once the first tower fell and the smoke cleared, the building was lit. [pg: The "flicker" in the lights, probably. 27 minutes happens to be the time between both collapses. ETA: And also explains why and when everything went completely dark as Hess reported.] He said there were no tunnels out of WTC7 in spite of reports. He said the city people were the first to evacuate. He said that the repeater system worked perfectly and their radios were blaring the entire time. Unfortunately, there is no tape of those calls.
Mike said that WTC7 would have collapsed even if the other towers had not collapsed because of the fires. [pg: Catalano was an engineer. Maybe he was the "engineer who predicted the building would fall"?] He said there were 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel and 20,000 gallons of coolant. This was a huge fire. [pg: Coolant? That's new to me.]
Last edited:
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Yes there would be coolant just as there is in an automobile engine. Its not flammable though. Generators also contain oil lubricant again same as an automobile engine, and that is flammable.
However these did not apparently play much part in the fires but Catalano would understandably be concerned that they were. Only after clean up was done did anyone know for sure.
However these did not apparently play much part in the fires but Catalano would understandably be concerned that they were. Only after clean up was done did anyone know for sure.
I have noticed the same things myself. Here is my take on some of it.
Regarding the elevators burning, I am not sure what he actually meant with that. Did he mean that they literarily were on fire, or that they overheated and stopped running (as indicated by jaydeehess to). My impression is that this is just something that he thought happened, and not necessarily something that really happened, because he was on Floor 4 at the time, below the floor where the generators where, attempting to escape from the dust filled floors. And as he points out himself the lights came back on. And earlier in this thread I posted an account on how the resident elevator mechanics had to rescue trapped people from two elevators that stalled when WTC 2 collapsed, one of the elevators they switched over to emergency power. So it looks very much like the generators continued to operate until WTC 1 collapsed.
As for the door he described to be full of fire and smoke, that is actually the same stairwell they chose to use after they gave up jumping down on the Con Edison building. I think we can safely assume that what he thought was fire and smoke, just was light in the stairwell shining through the dust from WTC 2. The stairwell was used by others later.
As for the fire on the Con Edison building, I think he might have mistaken the dust cloud from WTC 2 to be smoke from a fire there. I have seen no other report or pictures indicating fire there. And as MM repeatedly likes to point out, the ConEd station itself was operational and powered until later in the day. But WTC 7 lost power anyway. This is covered in Appendix in NIST NCSTAR 1-9. The WTC complex including WTC 7 got electrical power through 8 circuit breakers. The impact of Flight 11 caused short circuits that tripped two of the breakers, Flight 175 tripped another two. And the collapse of WTC 2 tripped the last remaining breakers, leaving the complex without line power from the ConEd station, including WTC 7, stalling the elevator Jennings and Hess were going to take down from the EOC.
Last edited:
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Wait...He says he thought the buildings collapse after he broke the window. We know this is not true. When does he say he noticed the buildings collapse (you know, dust, smoke and darkness)? For your time-line to be correct this has to be after they got to the 8th floor. In fact, they would of had to wait around for at least a half hour before breaking the window.
That square peg is not going through that solid board.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
If I may so bold; I think MM is trying to fit Jennings' mentioning of continuing explosions ( the square peg) into being his description of the tower collapses ( the solid plank he's hammering the peg into).
Like I said , once you have experienced darkness, choking dust and the building shaking once, any subsequent similar, albeit even worse, instance of it is basically "meh! Been there done that , no biggee!".
In fact we could torture the metaphor and say that MM is grasping a straw that he's trying to hammer into a solid plank.
Last edited:
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
That doesn't help. That puts them on the 6th floor at the time of the first collapse. Mr Jennings claims to have seen the buildings intact after that. MM is adamant that this is correct.If I may so bold; I think MM is trying to fit Jennings' mentioning of continuing explosions ( the square peg) into being his description of the tower collapses ( the solid plank he's hammering the peg into).
Like I said , once you have experienced darkness, choking dust and the building shaking once, any subsequent similar, albeit even worse, instance of it is basically "meh! Been there done that , no biggee!".
In fact we could torture the metaphor and say that MM is grasping a straw that he's trying to hammer into a solid plank.
The square peg is still a tree branch waiting to be tooled.
1stClassAlan
Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 145
Now do excuse me if this has been covered before and bear in mind that I'm in the U.K. without ever seeing any of the collapsed buildings while standing in real time.
Various posts have stated people being on or traveling through floors 5, 6, 7 of WTC 7 and there is reference to people using phones or radios on floors with generators. What is unclear is whether these generators were fired up at the time - in my experience, one is lucky to hear your own thoughts next to a large running generator so that casts some doubts on folk who said they talked by some means.
By looking through Building 7's history (I was highly intrigued by the substantial remodeling for Salmon Brothers HQ - as I would have dropped everything to work on it! ) I formed the impression that an entire floor was removed (6) to accommodate the large stand-by generators - does anyone have an authoritative answer to the floors were renumbered or not?
There are also references to suggest that these generators were problematic long before 911 - to the extent that at least some of them failed their run-up tests and this was a source of long correspondence to the builders who were still responsible for them. Does anyone KNOW the facts?
Various posts have stated people being on or traveling through floors 5, 6, 7 of WTC 7 and there is reference to people using phones or radios on floors with generators. What is unclear is whether these generators were fired up at the time - in my experience, one is lucky to hear your own thoughts next to a large running generator so that casts some doubts on folk who said they talked by some means.
By looking through Building 7's history (I was highly intrigued by the substantial remodeling for Salmon Brothers HQ - as I would have dropped everything to work on it! ) I formed the impression that an entire floor was removed (6) to accommodate the large stand-by generators - does anyone have an authoritative answer to the floors were renumbered or not?
There are also references to suggest that these generators were problematic long before 911 - to the extent that at least some of them failed their run-up tests and this was a source of long correspondence to the builders who were still responsible for them. Does anyone KNOW the facts?
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
If you're on the same floor in the stair/core area, you would be hard pressed to actually hear them. The "vault" area is reasonable sound proof. By "vault" I mean the containment area designed to isolate the gen-sets from the paying tenants. It's more or less a concrete vault.
Last edited:
Miragememories
Banned
The problem is not me evading the question.
The problem is with people like yourself who do not like the answer.
Honestly, put yourself in 7 WTC on 9/11 and out of sight of the WTC twin towers. All you know about what is happening outside the building is that you were called to the 23rd floor OEM because a small private plane crashed into 1 WTC.
While you are inside 7 WTC you witness an explosion that blows you back from a 6th floor stairwell landing and blocks that descent.
Over the next hour and half you experience repeated explosions (inside and outside), darkness, dust, and extreme heat.
How likely are you to make the mental leap required to imagine that the original small plane crash into 1 WTC turned into the total high speed collapse of both the WTC twin towers?
Since we know Mr. Jennings was trapped in 7 WTC when the WTC twin towers collapsed, he must have "noticed" 7 WTC shaking.
Since he did not know there was an extreme event occurring nearby, one can only assume he thought the building shaking was part of all the explosive activity.
I merely pointed out how you were intentionally being misleading using an expanded map, with no allowance acknowledged for the short time required to drive quickly from the bridge to St. Paul's.
The driver, Assistant Commissioner Drury stopped in front of St. Paul's Chapel, and Richard Zarrillo, now on the run, headed to the OEM on the 23rd floor of 7 WTC.
My cropped map showed the route from the stopped car to 7 WTC, which clearly was much shorter than the large map you chose to illustrate the much further distance from the Brooklyn Bridge.
Your 30 minutes was nothing more than an arbitrary and self-serving number designed to bolster your chosen timeline.
7 WTC was just west of the U.S. Post Office. Richard Zarillo ran one block down Vesey St. to Church St and then passed the Post Office to reach 7 WTC.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
I have no problem with any of these reports. In fact I think they are correct. He did not however see the buildings standing upon arriving at the 8th floor. Subtract that and Mr Jennings observations fit nicely for the time they happened. Lights flashed (south tower collapse), "explosion" (the demise of the north tower). You're the one trying to drive the square peg, not me.
Sources for this post are the interviews with:
* EMT Richard Zarrillo
* Assistant Commissioner James Drury
* Captain Abdo Nahmod
When Flight 11 hit WTC 1 at 8:46 Nahmod and Zarrilo were at 9 Metrotech in Brooklyn. Drury was at the time driving on his way to the same location. After the attack Nahmod and Zarrilo had several telephone calls, and went around to get equipment and transport.
Drury estimates that he arrived and parked in the garage of 9 Metrotech around, nine or shortly thereafter. On his way from the car he meets Zarrillo and Nahmod who begs him to take them over to the WTC area. Neither of them saw Flight 175 hitting WTC 2, they only noticed that it was on fire when they were driving over the Brooklyn Bridge. Zarrilo just think it happened while they were driving across the bridge, and he is not sure of the time.
If Drury is correct in his estimate of his arrival in the garage, they may very well still have been down in the garage when Flight 175 hit WTC 2 at 9:03. The driving distance, along the route described by Drury, from 9 Metrotech to where they parked is about 3,6 km. If they managed an average speed of 80 km/h that distance could be covered in about 5 minutes.
That would have them at the place they parked at 9:08. The distance from where they parked to WTC 7 is about 350 meters. Let us give them 5 minutes to cover that distance, navigating themselves through a still likely crowded lobby and get an elevator up to the 23rd floor.
That may get them inside the EOC at 9:13. There they started to log on to their computer terminals and placing calls to inform that they were present. Let us give them another 5 minutes to do this. The clock will then be 9:18. Zarrillo says that 5-10 minutes after this they were ordered to evacuate. The clock would then be between 9:23 and 9:28. But if we are going to make a realistic time estimate. We can not only look at the lowest realistic timetable, we also have to take into account that Zarrillo could be underestimating his estimates. When you are working intensely on something, the time flies much faster than you think. So when Zarrillo says 5-10 minutes it could just as well be 10-15 minutes, or maybe 15-20 minutes. Suddenly the time for the evacuation is between 9:28 and 9:33, or 9:33 and 9:38; consistent with the conclusions of NIST and other Reports. Or maybe they left 9 Metrotech even later than 9:03.
And we do not know what other things they may have done in this time frame, that they do not mention. It is interesting to note how they provide different details of the same event. For instance Zarrillo provides more details about what they did before they left to got to WTC 7, while Nahmod is more brief.
According to Richard Rotanz he ordered the evacuation of the OEM EOC after the attack on Pentagon at 9:37. It is on page 5. I am sure that you quickly will spot that he has mixed the crash of Flight 93 at 10:03 into his narrative. I would say understandable given the confusion of the day. I had to look the time up myself when I read that short account, because it was sometime since I have been discussing these events.
Never mind the exact time, if you read on in Nahmod's account you will find that he never leaves the building, he stays on in the lobby and loading dock area, together with a lot of other persons.
Then if you look at NIST NCSTAR 1-9 you will find that the lobby was open from the first floor all the way up to the floor slab of the 5th floor. You will also find that the stairwell Jennings and Hess were descending ends at the 5th floor directly above the area Mike Cantalano took cover when WTC 2 collapsed. Why did not anyone hear and respond to the explosion you believe occurred sometime before the collapse of WTC 2, and Jennings thought occurred below him? It was only one floor slab between the stairwell and the lobby area.
Last edited:
TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
Of course that isn't a problem for you. Evading questions is what people like yourself are predisposed to do. Like this:
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the question put to you. Or this:
Which you know is absolute bull **** but if I take the bait, it'll be good for another page or two of you evading the questions that destroy your fantasy.
Seriously.
Give it a rest.
The sad part is you think you can get blown down by nearby explosive, and live. They would be dead if it was an explosive. Now a building part hitting WTC 7 would shake the building and sound like ("sound like") and explosion.
You debunk yourself, no CD, no explosives.
thedopefishlives
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,696
MM needs to watch Mythbusters. They conclusively busted the idea that one could get knocked about by an explosive shockwave and survive. If the overpressure doesn't kill you, the shrapnel and debris absolutely would. If you were far enough away to survive, you wouldn't get knocked about.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Sure, if that's all there was that would have affected them on the 8th floor if the towers collapsed while they were there. In fact all Jennings mentions is continuing explosions he "heard". No mention of building shaking, AND no mention at all of the heavy darkness of the enveloping dust cloud, no mention at all of the influx of choking dust, no mention at all that he saw the massive dust clouds from the tower collapses chasing the firefighters out of the area.
These omissions are either indicative of the fact that their arrival on the eighth floor occurred after both collapses, or that Jennings and Hess were practically unconscious to not have found it noteworthy that they experienced a hellish ordeal not once but three times , culminating with the one which would feel like the structure was about to come apart and more dust than the first two.
THAT has been studiously ignored by you on a continuing basis. So, yeah, you quite definitely are avoiding questions.
Last edited:
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Sounds all very familiar. Its analogue is the truther parsing of the collapse of WTC7 to ignore the first ten seconds.
- Status