'What about building 7'?

[jaydeehess]

Mirage Memories, before moving on please address why, if Jennings and Hess , on the 23rd floor, should have experienced something akin to that described by Catalano, yet their not having had that experience on the 8th floor is entirely within reason.

Still absolutly no idea why Jennings and Hess had no comment at all wrt the hell that they would have experienced if they were on the eighth floor at the collapse of both towers. This would be, supposedly, three times in under a couple hours that they were subjected to darkness, choking dust, and severe shaking of the large office building they were in. In fact, given the documented fact of the major structural damage to WTC7 from the collapse of WTC1, that would have been the most horrifying of them.
Yet MM cannot, will not, explain why no mention of this at all.

 

[jaydeehess]

WTC 7's collapse, viewed from the exterior (most videos were taken from the north), did appear to fall almost uniformly as a single unit. .....

Nothing at all that has not been discussed at length several times.

 

[Animal]

I'm not really seeing any serious mistakes. I'm seeing MM trying to work snipets of the NIST report and attempting to spin it into something it never was.

NIST reported an earlier evacuation time and noted the OEM and other government entities evacuated later.

MM's screen name was not picked by chance.

The individual chapters of the NIST report were written by different groups/sub-groups of people. It is obvious that there was not a global editor for the reports based on the different phrases / words used to describe identical things in different chapters. Troofers jump on these as evidence of a conspiracy.....in reality, it likely was NIST time/budget shaving.

(When my wife has her book / papers published......the editing process is painful. Lots of phone calls with lots of debate about particular words etc. and the process takes months.)

 

[pgimeno]

Are you not interested in the fact my baseless accusation that the NIST is willing to employ fiction in order to further their presentation?

FTFY. Aren't you happy that lies are allowed in this forum? If they weren't, you would be banned long ago.

I, of course, don't buy your "fact".

Mr. Jennings did not even notice the lights flicker while on the 23rd floor.

I have no doubt that when the WTC twin towers collapsed, Mr. Jennings, on the 8th floor, shared a somewhat similar experience to that of Mike Catalano and his co-workers.

The key difference, is that Mike Catalano knew that both towers had been struck by commercial aircraft and were on fire.

Mr. Jennings was still under the impression that only a small private plane had crashed into 1 WTC.

Mike Catalano knew, or soon deduced, what he was experiencing when the WTC twin towers collapsed.

Mr. Jennings was on the north side of 7 WTC and only saw the WTC twin towers after he first arrived.

As he and Mr. Hess testified, they did not see the collapses when they occurred, and it was not until after they were rescued that they discovered what had happened.

At best, Mr. Jennings could only assume that what he experienced was a situation inside 7 WTC, since it made no sense that a private plane crash into 1 WTC could be the cause.

The building shake, the smoke, the heat, the darkness, were things he had to attribute to the constant explosions he referred to.

For Mr. Jennings, it started with the first explosion inside 7 WTC below the 6th floor stairwell landing, which happened before the collapse of 2 WTC.

The latter is incorrect. Mr. Hess reported soot and that they could breathe for three stories top before that happened. What caused the soot and the difficulty to breathe?

Your argument applies equally well to them being in the 23rd floor.

 

[Miragememories]

The NIST are doing a fine job muddying the evacuation timeline.

Their apparent goal is to put as much emphasis as possible on a redundant 9:45 am evacuation order.

The 9:45 evacuation order was for the OEM not the rest of the building. I'm sure you know this and just want to muddy the waters with what NIST said was a general building evacuation.

You and the truth are forever strangers.

The NIST repeat their lie on page 319.

"No building evacuation announcement was broadcast prior to approximately 9:45 a.m."

"The decisions appear not to have resulted in actually delivering specific guidance to the occupants via the public address system until approximately 9:45 a.m."

After saying 2 pages earlier;

"Shortly after WTC 2 was attacked, however, the representative witnessed OEM order a SP manager to evacuate the building."

Minutes after the 2nd plane hits 2 WTC [9:02 am];

"Now we’re at the third floor lobby...I told the overall head of security that we’d better call an official evacuation. He said, “Now Mike, it’s across the street. We’re not in a state of emergency.”Let’s get everyone out, now.” And he said no. I almost lunged at him.

Fortunately the property manager of 7 World Trade in its entirety was there.

He looked at me and said, “Mike, are you calling for evacuation?” I said, “Absolutely.” He gets on the PA system and speaks throughout the building."

The NIST had approximately 7 years to proofread.

Most of those conflicting quotes were taken from the same page of their final WTC 7 Report

Mistakes don't survive years of government effort?

Mistakes are unintentional errors.

Errors in plain sight, like those I have highlighted, had to be intentional obfuscation.

Anecdotal reporting would not be subject to engineering discipline.

It would be under the control of those who performed the final editing of the report.

Those who may have noticed those errors after publication, likely did not realize their significance, and therefore dismissed them as inconsequential.

Unless you have access to Mr. Jenning's testimony, which the NIST did not publish, the conflict with his timeline remains buried.

The NIST said where he was when the WTC twin towers collapsed and they totally ignored his conflicting testimony.

 

[NoahFence]

MM
Why do you ignore the rest of the day's events?

 

[TJM]

The NIST said where he was when the WTC twin towers collapsed and they totally ignored his conflicting testimony.

I'm pretty sure once NIST sifted through Jennings bull **** they decided the testimony was worthless.

 

[Norseman]

You and the truth are forever strangers.

The NIST repeat their lie on page 319.

​

After saying 2 pages earlier;

​

Minutes after the 2nd plane hits 2 WTC [9:02 am];

​

Mistakes are unintentional errors.

Errors in plain sight, like those I have highlighted, had to be intentional obfuscation.

Anecdotal reporting would not be subject to engineering discipline.

It would be under the control of those who performed the final editing of the report.

Those who may have noticed those errors after publication, likely did not realize their significance, and therefore dismissed them as inconsequential.

Unless you have access to Mr. Jenning's testimony, which the NIST did not publish, the conflict with his timeline remains buried.

The NIST said where he was when the WTC twin towers collapsed and they totally ignored his conflicting testimony.

Here MM is a more complete quote of your quote from page 317 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, with an additional bullet point quoted:

• In the lobby of WTC 7, a tenant representative asked the building fire safety directors whether or not to issue an evacuation order. The preliminary decision, prior to WTC 2 being attacked, was not to evacuate WTC 7. Shortly after WTC 2 was attacked, however, the representative witnessed OEM order a SP manager to evacuate the building. The representative never heard an evacuation announcement over the PA system.

• After WTC 2 and the Pentagon were attacked, an OEM manager had a conversation on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (OEM office) with unidentified representatives of the U.S. Secret Service, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation, WTC security, and other OEM officials, and he personally ordered the evacuation of WTC 7, 15 min prior to the collapse of WTC 2.9 This corroborated the tenant representative's statement, establishing the time to have been about 9:45. (By all accounts, the building was essentially empty at this point, and he acknowledged that many had already self-evacuated.)

You have to differentiate between the general evacuation of WTC 7, and the evacuation of the OEM EOC itself specifically. A representative of the OEM may very well have ordered an evacuation of WTC 7 in general at an early stage. But that quiet certainly did no include an evacuation of the EOC OEM.

 

[jaydeehess]

Here MM is a more complete quote of your quote from page 317 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, with an additional bullet point quoted:



You have to differentiate between the general evacuation of WTC 7, and the evacuation of the OEM EOC itself specifically. A representative of the OEM may very well have ordered an evacuation of WTC 7 in general at an early stage. But that quiet certainly did no include an evacuation of the EOC OEM.

Wait, what, omg, there were still people on the 23rd floor at 9:45.
Well the NIST is obviously neglecting, probably deliberately, that these people exist in another dimension and were invisible to Jennings and Hess. I mean obvious is obvious. These were Secret Service, FBI, and building security who we all know have special powers.

 

[DGM]

You and the truth are forever strangers.

Oh yeah, It's me.............

You never answered why Mr Jennings never noted any signs of either tower collapse but handwave away the most obvious sign he reports as being something else.

How's that square peg doing going through that solid plank?

 

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
According to the NIST, for Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess, the collapse of 2 WTC was nothing more than a momentary light flicker.

For Mike Catalano and co-workers downstairs in 7 WTC, when 2 WTC collapsed;
Originally Posted by Mike Catalano, former Building Engineer WTC7

"Then everything went pitch black.

The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t imagine.

I really can’t describe it.

It was nasty.

I’m telling you the building was shaking."

He most certainly does not when he is on the 23rd floor!

Mr. Jennings did not even notice the lights flicker while on the 23rd floor.

I have no doubt that when the WTC twin towers collapsed, Mr. Jennings, on the 8th floor, shared a somewhat similar experience to that of Mike Catalano and his co-workers.

Hess describes a dire situation, several things happening at once, choking dust, shaking building, darkness..... Describes it a total of how many times MM? Jennings was quite shook up about the incident at the sixth floor too, yet how do you explain the complete and utter lack of any similar description of two events while they were on the eighth floor?

The key difference, is that Mike Catalano knew that both towers had been struck by commercial aircraft and were on fire.

Mr. Jennings was still under the impression that only a small private plane had crashed into 1 WTC.

Mr. Jennings was on the north side of 7 WTC and only saw the WTC twin towers after he first arrived.

As he and Mr. Hess testified, they did not see the collapses when they occurred, and it was not until after they were rescued that they discovered what had happened.

At best, Mr. Jennings could only assume that what he experienced was a situation inside 7 WTC, since it made no sense that a private plane crash into 1 WTC could be the cause.

So, Hess describes very much like what Catalano describes. He describes this as happening once and only once despite your timeline meaning it would have happened to them three times with the last one being the absolute worst as large chunks of the building are torn out(as opposed to a damaged stairway from an 'explosion' that not one of the dozens of people still in the building and nearby heard), and your explanation is 'well Jennings does say he heard explosions.', In the same breath you complain that neither Jennings or Hess noticed the building shake while three times higher up in an area with local backup power and which would not suffer a great influx of dust.

No mention of the massive and choking dust cloud having chased firefighters away, let alone the same happening to them while on the eighth floor. No mention of how these 'explosions' he heard also shook the building in the same or worse fashion they experienced at the sixth floor.

Your grasping at straws is evident to everyone with an iota of logic and reason. Give it up.

 

[jaydeehess]

Oh yeah, It's me.............

You never answered why Mr Jennings never noted any signs of either tower collapse but handwave away the most obvious sign he reports as being something else.

How's that square peg doing going through that solid plank?

Apparently after it happens to a person once, in a stairwell, it causes a rather blase attitude about it happening again even if the amount of noise, building shaking and choking dust is worse than the first time. Its "Meh, did that once, happened a couple more times too. Sure I know I described the first occurrance as a hellish experience in this interview but the other two incidents are not worth discussing. They'd only be repetitive. I am sure you BBC interviewers agree and even if I did discuss the other two occurrences, you'd just edit them out as repetitive."

 

[Miragememories]

Here MM is a more complete quote of your quote from page 317 in NIST NCSTAR 1-9, with an additional bullet point quoted:

After WTC 2 and the Pentagon were attacked, an OEM manager had a conversation on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 (OEM office) with unidentified representatives of the U.S. Secret Service, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation, WTC security, and other OEM officials, and he personally ordered the evacuation of WTC 7, 15 min prior to the collapse of WTC 2.

This corroborated the tenant representative's statement, establishing the time to have been about 9:45. (By all accounts, the building was essentially empty at this point, and he acknowledged that many had already self-evacuated.)

I included the complete quote in my post 2529.

You have to differentiate between the general evacuation of WTC 7, and the evacuation of the OEM EOC itself specifically.

A representative of the OEM may very well have ordered an evacuation of WTC 7 in general at an early stage.

But that quiet certainly did no include an evacuation of the EOC OEM.

To listen to you, there never was an evacuation of the OEM.

That quote is still talking about a total building evacuation, as was the earlier one announced over the building PA system.

I guess all those OEM staffers who left earlier were AWOL?

How do you explain the evidence of apparent earlier authorized OEM evacuations, or do you really believe that the OEM was not evacuated until 9:45 am?

A little after 08:46 am;

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"​

Shortly after 2 WTC was attacked at 9:02 am Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM;

"Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound. That was the only thing I really heard because I said, Abdo, we’ve got to go, and we made it down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building."

Obviously he considered himself at least temporarily part of the OEM staff and felt the evacuation order applied to himself.

And then there was Sgt Bylicki, OEM;

"Director Odermatt quickly debriefed me and instructed me to open the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) for a fully staffed operation, which I did. While in the EOC I assisted the Watch Command in handling an enormous influx of telephone calls, many for top City officials, During this time I observed the second plane hit the South tower via live video feed. I realized at this time these acts were intentional. Immediately following the second attack 7 WTC lost primary power and switched to auxiliary generators.The fire alarm enunciator panel lit up indicating there was no water pressure for fire suppression in the building. I was soon on the phone with the FAA who informed me that at least 1 other plane was uaccounted for and possibly heading for NYC. I informed Deputy Director and FDNY Captain Rotanz who was the highest-ranking OEM official in the building at the time. Captain Rotanz surmised that 7 WTC was potentially the next target and subsequently ordered an evacuation of all OEM and building employees. The OEM staffs assembled in the lobby of 7 WTC, and were awaiting instructions via radio."

This certainly sounds like an official OEM evacuation to me.

 

[Sherman Bay]

On a related, not-too-hijacked note, Richard Gage is still making a career out of the same claims he made 13 years ago -- you know, the ones that have been thoroughly refuted by most everyone -- and appeared on a 40 minute C-SPAN program this past August (with no refutation or opposing views).

It's as if he lives in a vacuum of his own devising, and it reminds me of the zero-dimensional King in Flatland who could conceive of no one else but himself ever existing.

 

[DGM]

This certainly sounds like an official OEM evacuation to me.

Working really hard to avoid the obvious question as to why didn't Mr Jennings actually notice either building collapse.

Was the 8th floor special?

 

[GlennB]

A little after 08:46 am;

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"

Discussed to death. "Staffers" refers to permanent OEM staff. Others (Jennings and Hess, Zarrillo and Nahmod and undoubtedly others) were summoned to the OEM. You know this already, yet try to give the impression there were only two people there.

Shortly after 2 WTC was attacked at 9:02 am Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM;

A blatant lie. He was on the Brooklyn bridge at 9:02 and the timing of his journey from there and subsequent arrival at the OEM was discussed in detail upthread. You know this just as you know what they had to do to get from the bridge to the OEM, a likely 30-minute trip. 5 minutes later he was ordered to evacuate.

And then there was Sgt Bylicki, OEM; ...

Captain Rotanz surmised that 7 WTC was potentially the next target and subsequently ordered

" .... subsequently ....", not immediately.

Your attempts to bolster your delusion have turned into what are effectively straightforward lies.

Donation details:

 

[GlennB]

For anybody interested in the route, you can work it out from the map below, starting on the bridge, going along Chambers to Broadway, then down to St Paul's Chapel. Then the rest is on foot.

Somebody experienced in NY streets might estimate how long that would take to drive/run in the conditions of a typical NY morning rush hour.

 

[Animal]

For anybody interested in the route, you can work it out from the map below, starting on the bridge, going along Chambers to Broadway, then down to St Paul's Chapel. Then the rest is on foot.

Somebody experienced in NY streets might estimate how long that would take to drive/run in the conditions of a typical NY morning rush hour.

[qimg]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/druryroute_zps0592702b.jpg[/qimg]

My one experience driving in Manhattan.....picked up a rental car 3 blocks from the Lincoln Tunnel (I was heading to NJ) at 2:00 in the afternoon. Had to make one left turn and 2 right turns......It took about a half hour.

 

[Miragememories]

Working really hard to avoid the obvious question as to why didn't Mr Jennings actually notice either building collapse.

Was the 8th floor special?

One moment you guys are arguing that Mr. Jennings could not possibly see the WTC twin towers, and the next you switch to how could he not have seen them.

[notice]
noun
notification or warning of something​

As I have said numerous times. He did notice, but he did not see!

A little after 08:46 am;

"OEM Commissioner John Odermatt, who later says that after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there." [Barrett and Collins, 2006, pp. 34, from Grand Illusion]"​

Discussed to death. "Staffers" refers to permanent OEM staff. Others (Jennings and Hess, Zarrillo and Nahmod and undoubtedly others) were summoned to the OEM. You know this already, yet try to give the impression there were only two people there.

Quibbling. People assigned to the OEM during an emergency effectively become part of the OEM active staff.

Regardless of your non-point, OEM Commissioner said that "after the first plane hit the WTC, he left only two staffers there.

Shortly after 2 WTC was attacked at 9:02 am Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM;

"Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there’s a third plane inbound. That was the only thing I really heard because I said, Abdo, we’ve got to go, and we made it down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building."

A blatant lie.

He was on the Brooklyn bridge at 9:02 and the timing of his journey from there and subsequent arrival at the OEM was discussed in detail up thread.

You know this just as you know what they had to do to get from the bridge to the OEM, a likely 30-minute trip. 5 minutes later he was ordered to evacuate.

For anybody interested in the route, you can work it out from the map below, starting on the bridge, going along Chambers to Broadway, then down to St Paul's Chapel. Then the rest is on foot.

Somebody experienced in NY streets might estimate how long that would take to drive/run in the conditions of a typical NY morning rush hour.

I never said that Richard Zarillo arrived at the OEM at 9:02 am.

Just to clarify your last post and map Glenn, Richard Zarillo was in a car driven by Assistant Commissioner Drury, dashboard emergency lights flashing, urgently responding to the unfolding crisis.

When Mr. Drury stopped in front of St. Paul's Chapel, Richard Zarrillo and Captain Nahmod started running to 7 WTC.

"I'm not sure of the exact time, but I believe as we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge was when the second plane hit the second tower. [9:02 am]

We [Assistant Commissioner Drury] parked -- I want to say it's on like Broadway right off of Vesey Street, between Vesey and Barclay. Captain Nahmod and I started heading down Vesey Street towards where we thought the command post would be. At that time we had received a page per Chief Peruggia to go into OEM at No. 7 World Trade and activate our post in OEM. Captain Nahmod and I were running down Vesey Street Abdo and I went into No. 7, activated OEM, placed calls to EMS Citywide, RCC, to tell them we were there and we were activated.

Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane inbound. That was the only thing I really heard because I said, Abdo, we've got to go, and we made it down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building."

A 30 minute trip for two emergency responders, on the run, from a location (not on the Brooklyn Bridge), after the second WTC tower had been hit, is nothing more than a lie which you wish to promote in order to satisfy a belief that you are married to Glenn.

Zarrillo is unsure of his times but let us assume as he said, that he was on the Brooklyn Bridge at 9:02 and was in emergency response mode.

He rapidly proceeds to a location (uncertain) near 7 WTC, and is rapidly proceeding towards 7 WTC with Captain Abdo Nahmod, having been paged by Chief Peruggia to go and man the OEM on the 23rd floor.

Maybe 5, but less than 10 minutes after their arrival at the 23rd floor OEM, they are directly ordered to immediately evacuate the OEM because of a 3rd incoming plane threat. They quickly depart and rejoin with Chief Peruggia somewhere in the 7 WTC lobby.

For Richard Zarrillo to have missed an encounter with Mr. Jennings, and allowing for guesstimate inaccuracies, they could have departed the OEM around 9:20 am or earlier.

This gave Richard Zarrillo, who was already in emergency status, 18 minutes or less to rush from the Brooklyn Bridge, park near 7 WTC, get to the OEM and after 5 minutes or so hastily depart.

And then there was Sgt Bylicki, OEM;

"Director Odermatt quickly debriefed me and instructed me to open the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) for a fully staffed operation, which I did. While in the EOC I assisted the Watch Command in handling an enormous influx of telephone calls, many for top City officials, During this time I observed the second plane hit the South tower via live video feed. I realized at this time these acts were intentional. Immediately following the second attack 7 WTC lost primary power and switched to auxiliary generators.The fire alarm enunciator panel lit up indicating there was no water pressure for fire suppression in the building. I was soon on the phone with the FAA who informed me that at least 1 other plane was uaccounted for and possibly heading for NYC. I informed Deputy Director and FDNY Captain Rotanz who was the highest-ranking OEM official in the building at the time. Captain Rotanz surmised that 7 WTC was potentially the next target and subsequently ordered an evacuation of all OEM and building employees. The OEM staffs assembled in the lobby of 7 WTC, and were awaiting instructions via radio."

" .... subsequently ....", not immediately.

Your attempts to bolster your delusion have turned into what are effectively straightforward lies.

[subsequent]
adjective
following​

Your attempts at denial are truly pathetic Glenn.

Captain Rotanz after receiving a warning about another incoming aircraft, has just arrived at the conclusion that 7 WTC is the likely target, realizes that a full building evacuation, including the OEM, is the correct response, and you feel that Sgt. Bylicki's choice of the word "subsequently" means that Captain Rotanz dithered on his evacuation decision.

And you call me delusional?

 

[fitzgibbon]

How do we make the leap from:

Captain Rotanz surmised that 7 WTC was potentially the next target

to

Captain Rotanz after receiving a warning about another incoming aircraft, has just arrived at the conclusion that 7 WTC is the likely target

One of these things is not like the other [/Sesame Street]

Fitz