Well, this politcal cartoon sure is spot on.

[Ziggurat]

"Hello Mr. Rapist would you ever so kindly provide me with your name, social security number, finger prints, and home of address before you go?"

You've never heard of a rape kit?

 

[Ziggurat]

Blame the victim, cute.

That's not blaming the victim. It's just how our justice system works: you need evidence to convict someone of a crime.

Would you prefer that we didn't?

 

[Ziggurat]

It's called Occam's Razor, not Occam's Rube Goldberg Machine. You seem to want this to be simultaneously extortion for riches, a partisan political ploy, a gynocrachal conspiracy, and the fulfillment of a three decade personal grudge. How many entities are going to be multiplied until it finally seems more likely that he actually did it? There are Game of Thrones subplots with fewer moving parts.

Nice straw man there. I don't need it to be all of those things. Hell, I don't need it to be any of those things. I don't need to determine motive at all. That's the point: motive shouldn't be in play, because there are lots of possibilities, and we can't determine which is correct.

That's why we need evidence. Except there isn't any. Apply Occam's Razor to that fact.

 

[Ziggurat]

And this is exactly why she didn't report it.

It might be why she didn't report it, if it happened. But you're kind of jumping the gun in concluding that it did.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Nice straw man there. I don't need it to be all of those things. Hell, I don't need it to be any of those things. I don't need to determine motive at all. That's the point: motive shouldn't be in play, because there are lots of possibilities, and we can't determine which is correct.

That's why we need evidence. Except there isn't any. Apply Occam's Razor to that fact.

But your entire argument is "We can't prove she doesn't have an ulterior motive."

 

[stevea]

So if I'm ever sexually assaulted make sure I'm already independently wealthy (so I'm not just after money) and I'm of the same political tribe as my assailant.

Got it.

No, just document the event contemporaneously. Tell a friend, send yourself an email & keep the headers. Write it up and send yourself a photo of same. Even people with 'motives' can be victims. The problem arises from claiming to be a victim having a potential motive (we all do) yet having no corroboration or evidence.

If you believe its a crime, then you have an obligation to society to report it to the police as failing to do this may endanger others.

 

[Stacyhs]

It should be expected by anyone with a clue, yes, and there's no reason to put book deals aside. But that's certainly not the entirety of it. Andrew McCabe and Peter Strzok made out quite handsomely from their Trump opposition with GoFundMe, so that was a pretty obvious route for Ford to take as well.

You are scraping the bottom of the keg with this kind of statement. Are you claiming that the intent of Ford was to make money out of coming forward? SERIOUSLY?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh come on who among us hasn't wanted to lead the jet setted, caviar dreams, rich and famous life of a... rape victim.

 

[phunk]

You've never heard of a rape kit?

Useful if you're raped. Less useful for attempted rape. Even less useful in 1982 before DNA testing was used in criminal investigations.

 

[Elagabalus]

That's not blaming the victim. It's just how our justice system works: you need evidence to convict someone of a crime.

Would you prefer that we didn't?

You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on the victim's ability to "get evidence". I believe your wording is very unfortunate.

No, Joe. If you're ever sexually assaulted, make sure you get some actual evidence, so that you don't have to depend on claiming purity of motive.

But that should go without saying for any victim of any crime.

 

[Ziggurat]

You are scraping the bottom of the keg with this kind of statement. Are you claiming that the intent of Ford was to make money out of coming forward? SERIOUSLY?

I don't know what her intent was. But it's a plausible one, and you're naive if you think it couldn't be a factor. And that's the case even if she's telling the truth. Money can make a difference. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[johnny karate]

And this is exactly why she didn't report it. It is why most victims of sexual assault don't report it. Well done.

You don't have to wait very long before the self-anointed Justice Police eventually slip into a little good ol' fashioned victim-blaming...

 

[Elagabalus]

... Apply Occam's Razor to that fact.

Kavanaugh torpedoed his own chances.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh come on who among us hasn't wanted to lead the jet setted, caviar dreams, rich and famous life of a... rape victim.

Ford didn't allege rape. If she made it up, she's not a victim at all. If she's telling the truth, then she's been living the life of a victim without getting a payout for it, why wouldn't she like a payout? I wouldn't begrudge her that.

But in either case, you aren't presenting any reason for why money couldn't be a motivating factor.

 

[johnny karate]

That's not blaming the victim. It's just how our justice system works: you need evidence to convict someone of a crime.

Would you prefer that we didn't?

We usually don't make the victims collect it.

 

[carlitos]

Ford didn't allege rape. If she made it up, she's not a victim at all. If she's telling the truth, then she's been living the life of a victim without getting a payout for it, why wouldn't she like a payout? I wouldn't begrudge her that.

But in either case, you aren't presenting any reason for why money couldn't be a motivating factor.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I categorically reject your reversal of the burden of proof. If you have evidence for this person being motivated by money, then go ahead and present it. This conspiracy thinking 'just asking questions' approach is crap.

 

[Belz...]

I addressed this objection explicitly in the passage you cut from your quote. This is dishonest, Belz...

It's not dishonest to point out that you brought it up. If the courtroom standard is not relevant, why bring it up at all?

I disagree.

You're wrong.

FBI background checks aren't justice. They're no part of any criminal or civil justice proceeding. Again, if she has a criminal accusation, and she believes a criminal investigation would produce evidence to support it, then justice would be to ask the "justice folks" to conduct a criminal or civil inquiry, not a background check. People ask the "justice folks" to do things that aren't actually justice all the time. Petitioning an authority does not magically grant your petition standing with that authority.

What department is the FBI part of, already?

Yes, I do know that full well. But look here: a lack of evidence is not an excuse to pursue justice without evidence.

But she didn't. She spoke out to inform people of the man's character. Now the investigation _could_ uncover something.

And this is you trying to have your cake and eat it, too. She never filed a criminal complaint because it wouldn't produce actionable evidence.

Now that is dishonest. That isn't what I said, nor is that necessarily the reason why she didn't. If you "know full well" why victims often don't come forward, why do you here pretend that you don't?

 

[Elagabalus]

So if I'm ever sexually assaulted make sure I'm already independently wealthy (so I'm not just after money) and I'm of the same political tribe as my assailant.

Got it.

Also, Joe, if you don't report it, that's also a mark against you.

 

[Belz...]

That's the same thing. People are always going to have ulterior motives to go after people in power. That's what being in power means.

Again you're essentially telling people that they just don't get to be victimized by people in power.

Ah, the good old days...

 

[johnny karate]

I won't speak for anyone else, but I categorically reject your reversal of the burden of proof. If you have evidence for this person being motivated by money, then go ahead and present it. This conspiracy thinking 'just asking questions' approach is crap.

Feel free to speak for me on that particular point.