• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

VP Debate Thread

I interpreted 2 things perhaps a bit differently than most of you...I thought that the "Can I call you Joe" thing was a subtle censure of Obama calling McCain by his first name without asking. On the other hand, I think that all of those guys have known each other for a while, and call each other by thier first names outside of this race, especially McCain and Biden, so it makes sense that they should continue to do so.

Biden tearing up over his single dad status...I doubt that it was intentional, but I think it took the sting out of Palin's sexism barb. He implied a "reverse-sexism" (if there is such a thing) attitude in Palin's rhetoric.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Björn Toulouse said:
Ja, ja.
Click to expand...


Both were playing the folksy card. How many references did we hear from Biden about his blue coller background, the wisdom of the common people in his home town in New England, etc,etc.etc.
Neither was as good at it as Bill Clinton though. That guy had the Plain Old Guy From Hope, Arkansaw down pat.
Final verdict, Palin did not come off like an idiot, but did not off like she was ready to take up the Presendency at a moment's notice either.
I would like her as a neighbor but not as a President.
 
not_so_new said:
CBSNews Poll. "Who won the debate?"

Biden 46%
Palin 21%
Tie 33%

CNN Poll. "Who won tonight's debate?"

Biden 51%
Palin 36%
Click to expand...

But what about those key Fox numbers?

Rather heartening to see such wide numbers. I thought she did better than that, largely because I thought people wouldn't care about what I perceived as weaknesses.
 
SnuggleSmacks said:
I interpreted 2 things perhaps a bit differently than most of you...I thought that the "Can I call you Joe" thing was a subtle censure of Obama calling McCain by his first name without asking. On the other hand, I think that all of those guys have known each other for a while, and call each other by thier first names outside of this race, especially McCain and Biden, so it makes sense that they should continue to do so.
Click to expand...
That was my impression as well. Interestingly, I don't think she called him "Joe" once during the debate, which reinforced my feeling that it was just a stunt.
 
geni said:
No you wouldn't I was only listening for most of it. Have you any idea how annoying that fokesy soccer mom bit came off?
Click to expand...

To you,maybe. Not to a lot of people.

I am no Palin fan...check my posting record, but her folksy routine is no better but no worse then that used by a lot of politicians in the US..of all political stripes.
The problem is she has nothing else to sell. Clinton,(I know I am repeating myself) could do folksly bit like no one else but could also do the smart penniless kid from Hope who made good.Palin, not so much.
A lot of Americans find the mannerism of a Oxford Don to be annoyning. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Last edited:
Meadmaker said:
But what about those key Fox numbers?
Click to expand...

87% Palin (23% Biden to make it look "fair and balanced")

Just kidding... I didn't see anything from Fox.

Rather heartening to see such wide numbers. I thought she did better than that, largely because I thought people wouldn't care about what I perceived as weaknesses.
Click to expand...

I agree.

One other number that was really interesting to me was that her "ready to lead" numbers were up to like 40 or 50 something % but his numbers were up to 90 something % which is huge in the polling world.
 
Earlier I said it looked like Biden had botox done. This wasn't simple partisan smearing like the Kerry botox rubbish (which I though was just silly). Honestly on the camera feed I was watching he had the forehead of a 14 year old.

Check out these stock photos:
http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/...os/070130_070205/070201_JoeBiden_vl.widec.jpg
http://www.nateanddi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/biden.jpg

Here is one of Joe without his eyebrows up, he still shows the traces of his forehead wrinkles:
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CC369_Biden8_20080819152535.jpg

Versus Tonight:
http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_5241_images/1002082122_M_biden1.jpg

Has he had work done or was it just the cameras/makeup?
 
Last edited:
Snide said:
I think I'd agree with you. I watched it while playing with my 3-yr-old, so sometimes I was only listening. I think she looked better than she sounded, and I don't mean attractively, but just in nerves, credibility, and such.
Click to expand...


Huh - how so? She appeared to be highly strained and reciting
all she learned in the last days. Virtually nothing she said seemed
to come out of her own mind or heart. Sorry, but I fail to see the
credibility part. She failed every time she wasn't addressing the
McCain points and Buzzwords.
 
Meadmaker said:
But what about those key Fox numbers?

Rather heartening to see such wide numbers. I thought she did better than that, largely because I thought people wouldn't care about what I perceived as weaknesses.
Click to expand...

I have got a feeling that a lot of people agree with me that we would like to have her as a neighbor but not anywhere near the Presidency.
 
I thought Biden's response to gay marriage was pretty good, in that he clearly defined marriage as a religious issue and that the government was not in the business of redefining a religious designation.

Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.
Click to expand...

That said he also explicitly stated that they are or should be Constitutionally guaranteed the same rights as any other couple. The first quote is in response to the specific question of supporting gay marriage as a follow up to the generalized question of agreeing with Alaska's policy of offering equal benefits to same sex partners. The following is part of Biden's answer to that first question. (taken directly from the transcript on the NYT website)


The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.

It's what the Constitution calls for. And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do.
Click to expand...

In this quote he does use the phrase "same-sex marriage", as there doesn't seem to be a phrase in the common lexicon to delineate a legal union from the religious institution (and not legally binding) marriage. I had really hoped that when Gwen Ifill asked specifically about supporting gay marriage that Biden would say yes. I'm disappointed that they are ducking that particular fight but it's a start in recognizing on a federal level that those rights exist and are not dependent on the individual states.



On the whole Palin was more coherent then I anticipated. She was coached almost too well; look in the camera, speak to the American people, when in doubt say one of these phrases. The winks were unnerving and she couldn't give a straight answer if you gave her a ruler.

Biden's strength lay in being able to tit for tat with many of the points she tried to make and was able to back up with specifics most of his points. He was also very good at hammering home a point without coming across as patronizing, sexist or overbearing. It was a good example of how to argue a specific without attacking the person (unless the person is McCain ;)).


Biden for the win.




Boo
 
SnuggleSmacks said:
I interpreted 2 things perhaps a bit differently than most of you...I thought that the "Can I call you Joe" thing was a subtle censure of Obama calling McCain by his first name without asking. On the other hand, I think that all of those guys have known each other for a while, and call each other by thier first names outside of this race, especially McCain and Biden, so it makes sense that they should continue to do so.

Biden tearing up over his single dad status...I doubt that it was intentional, but I think it took the sting out of Palin's sexism barb. He implied a "reverse-sexism" (if there is such a thing) attitude in Palin's rhetoric.

Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...


Well, Biden and Palin both said "Gwen" when addressing Gwen Ifill during the debate.
Must be some sort of sinister conspiracy.
 
Back to healthcare. . .did Palin say she knows what it's like to be without health insurance?
 
dudalb said:
I have got a feeling that a lot of people agree with me that we would like to have her as a neighbor but not anywhere near the Presidency.
Click to expand...

I don't want her as my neighbor at all.

We have gay friends accost the street, my girlfriend and I are atheists, we don't like fake people and I would like to keep her daughter's baby-daddy's Iroc from racing up and down the neighborhood.

*I was joking........... about the Iroc only*
 
not_so_new said:
Well, it's all about perception and usually the first perception is the one that becomes the dominate perception....


CBSNews Poll. "Who won the debate?"

Biden 46%
Palin 21%
Tie 33%

CNN Poll. "Who won tonight's debate?"

Biden 51%
Palin 36%

Obviously this can change greatly but for now these are the first hard numbers I have heard from large'ish polling pools.
Click to expand...
This is no surprise. MSNBC
Biden 52%
Palin 38%
Tie 4.3%
Not sure 5.9%

This is a shocker:
Fox News

Biden 60%
Palin 40%
 
The problem with the polls is, this debate wasn't about who won unless it was Palin. The narrative we were working with is "how badly will Joe beat her". The fact that he didn't clobber her makes it a defeat for him. He gained nothing. He underperformed his expectations.

Unfortunately for Palin, only by upsetting Biden could she have upped McCain's poll numbers. It wasn't good enough to look good and show you could hold you own with Biden. To counteract the downward trend McCain is having, she would have had to call out Biden's de-regulation lies and oil company tax break lies as well. She and McCain have to change the untrue narrative that Biden/Obama are making fact by virtue of repetition.
 
DavidJames said:
Gergen weighed in A+ for Biden, A- for Palin. However, reading his text, she seems to get her grade due to exceeding expectations while Biden got his for actually doing well.

Gergen clearly grades on a curve
Click to expand...

As someone who was on his high school and college debate teams, I can tell you that grading a debate is pretty subjective. You are not only judged on accuracy, but on presentation..and each judge has a different idea of what good presentation is.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Back to healthcare. . .did Palin say she knows what it's like to be without health insurance?
Click to expand...


No. At least she didn't use the word "without" in the context of healthcare.

ETA:

Palin: "But it wasn't just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn't have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We've been there also so that connection was important."
 
Last edited:
As for the power of the VP question, the actual powers the VP had by the Constitution are pretty damn limited until something happens to the President. Presidieng over the Senate and voting the decided vote in case of a tie are about the only major duties.
A lot depends on what the President wants. Some Presidents have liked to use their VP actively, but others Presidents have given their VP so little to do that John Adams famous comment on it being the most insignificence office ever created by man is probably accurate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom