Moderated Views on George Galloway.

[The Fool]

The problem with the "Anti Zionists" is that it is sort of irrevelent whether the founding of Israel back in 1948 was a good idea, a bad idea, or something inbetween. As of 2009, there are Five Million Jews in Israel, and they ain't voluntary going anyplace else. That Cow had definently left the barn.
What has to happen for the Palestinians to "get their land back" is painfully obvious, but the Anti Zionist don't want to admit it.

why oh why do we need to constantly infer that to be anti-zionist or even "anti-somethingsdonebyisrael is calling for genocide of Israelis?????

The current zionist government of Israel stands on a platform of no palestinian state under any circumstances. I think they need to change.

I am "anti-thisattitudeofthecurrentzionistgovernmentofisrael" however, my proposed solution (a palestinian state) does not involve Genocide of israelis.....don't see why it has to?

 

[Stout]

Hmmmmmmm, you've got a point, Stout, which is quite similar to mine, though not the same.

We both would agree, I suppose, that "anti-Zionists" do not see brown people as fully human.

They are never responsible for anything they do, for example -- they are always merely passively reacting (by suicide bombing, for example) to actions by the real actors in this world, the white people.

The moment the little brown (or black) people are not linked to some white guy -- a long as the bad guy is not white -- who cares? It's not as if what black or brown people do to each other matters.

Brown and black people are just spear-holders in a walk-on role in the great passion play. All speaking roles -- whether as the hero (the "anti-zionist") or the villan (the jews) -- are reserved for whites.

The major difference being, I don't see the anti-Zionists as wishing death on the Israelis. Excusing it sure, but not wishing it.

Passively reacting ? I'm unsure about that term but generally those sort of reactions are seen as justified because they're ( Palis ) reacting against an aggression, in this case being colonised, and fighting back with the limited means at their disposal.

Yes, brown on brown violence seems to be excused too with the thrust being to identify just how the evil west helped make it happen. Using the Tamils as an example, our local anti-western types were writing to the Canadian government demanding that they stop enabling the Genocide in Sri Lanka by sending over aid to the Sri Lankan government.

Now that I've had a boatload of Tamils deposited on my doorstep I expect those anti-western types to be howling that we give them refuge because "we" helped create the situation in the first place.

 

[Stout]

The current zionist government of Israel stands on a platform of no palestinian state under any circumstances. I think they need to change.

I'm not seeing that. What about eliminating the state of belligerence and forcing Israel's hand under the Oslo accords ?

 

[Skeptic]

Passively reacting ? I'm unsure about that term but generally those sort of reactions are seen as justified because they're ( Palis ) reacting against an aggression, in this case being colonised, and fighting back with the limited means at their disposal.

Considering that their definition of "colonization" is "Israel existing"; that their means, while perhaps limited, are more or less 100% aimed at destroying Israel (nothing goes to, say, welfare or non-Hamas-brainwashing schooling); that they constantly rejected a Palestinian state; and that many other people, though occupied, do not seem to consider it necessary to used suicide bombing to kill the babies of the enemy -- this is an Islamist technique of terrorism -- we can translate what the Palestinians are doing more accurately as something like:

"The Palestinians are fighting to destroy Israel with everything they've got, over and above doing anything to improve their situation; they hate Jews so badly including the repeated rejection of a Palestinian state that would not allow them to continue killing Jews (even if only on paper); they want the Jews dead so badly they send their own children to blow themselves up as long as they kill any Jew they can, due to their Islamist, Jihad-based, terrorism-supporting world view."

Making this single-minded genocidal goal of the Palestinian leadership, driven by their religion, by their bigotry, and their simple hatred of Jews into some noble "anti-colonialist" cause is precisely the sort of distortion that I'm talking about.

Then again, this is nothing new, and you have a point that it's not unique to the war against the Jews, I'm sorry, the "zionists" (wink wink). On the whole the "anti-zionists" are the same folks who supported other single-minded mass murderers -- as long as they murdered the correct people and could be seen as "revolutionaries" -- such as Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Stalin, the Ayatollah Khomeini, etc.

 

[Stout]

Skeptic, I'm under the impression that we're talking about two different groups here. I'm also under the impression that you live in Israel and are much closer to this conflict than I am, half way around the world in my comfy chair.

I can take everything you say as applying to the Palestinian people, or factions with in that population and find myself unable to refute it due to lack of experience, so to speak.

I was speaking about those western anti-Zionists who, like myself are "arguing" this conflict based on media reports and blog postings. It's this group I'm specifically talking about when I say I've never heard anyone calling for the death of "the Jews"

I'd have to do some pretty fancy semantic gymnastics and indulge in some wild speculation to equate the proponents of the one state solution as wanting to see the Jewish population wiped out.

 

[WildCat]

I'd have to do some pretty fancy semantic gymnastics and indulge in some wild speculation to equate the proponents of the one state solution as wanting to see the Jewish population wiped out.

So you think Palestine would be the first Arab state ever to treat religious minorities equally under the law?

You believe this why?

 

[Ziggurat]

I think you are mistaking the side of the resistance for the agressor.

"Resistance". What a wonderful euphemism for trying to kill children.

Galloway is always on about the pointless army members that have gotten killed by people "against the west" as you say, frequently talks about them and how they might improve this death toll so its not so bad.

And where does he always lay the blame? On the west, in the form of our political leadership, never on the people who actually did the killing. You aren't disproving my point at all, Zeuzzz.

 

[Stout]

So you think Palestine would be the first Arab state ever to treat religious minorities equally under the law?

You believe this why?

Non sequitur, I'm saying I've never heard/read anyone say that the one state solution is the same thing as death to the Jews. the destruction of Israel as it was originally envisioned, sure, but saying "death to the Jews" wouldn't go over well with even the most ardent supporters of *social justice*

 

[Skeptic]

I was speaking about those western anti-Zionists who, like myself are "arguing" this conflict based on media reports and blog postings. It's this group I'm specifically talking about when I say I've never heard anyone calling for the death of "the Jews"

My grandfather was hounded out of Europe with the cry, "Jew, you don't belong here! You are a foreign immigrant! Go back to Palestine, your home!". Many of those who shouted that, in their post-war excuses for their behavior, claimed that they weren't really antisemites: they just wanted the Jews out of Europe, a limited geographical area, so it doesn't count.

Today, I am hounded by screams of, "Jew, you don't belong here! You are a foreign immigrant! Go back to Europe, your home!". Those who shout that, in their current excuse for their behavior, claim they aren't really antisemites: they just want the Jews out of Palestine, a limited geographical area, so it doesn't count.

The antisemites of yesteryear believed that, of all the nations of the earth, the Jews are especially evil, and have no right to exist. The "anti-zionists" of today believe that, of all the countries on the earth, the Jewish state is especially evil, and has no right to exists.

Do you think these similarities -- there are many more -- between today's "anti-zionists" and yesterday's antisemites are purely coincidental? They're not. Except for their care not to use the word "Jew" ("zionist" replaced that), they are simply the same Jew-haters of yesteryear, saying the exact same things: Juden Raus!; Jews ("zionists") control the world (or the USA, or the media); "Jews have no rights a non-Jew must respect" (to their own country, for instance); etc.

That I make no distinction between anti-zionism and antisemitism does not mean I make no distinction between both and criticism of Israel. Of course not every criticism of Israel is antisemitic. Not every criticism of Black people is racist. But this hardly means that someone who is obsessed with Blacks and constantly tells us about how their IQ is lower and their behavior stupid and dangerous, can claim he "isn't anti-black, just anti-low-intelligence" simply because he avoids the N-word and speaks about "people of inferior genetic composition" instead.

 

[Stout]

Skeptic, I can understand your argument and I sympathize with your position however i don't agree with your parallels between the motivations of North American/European anti-Zionists and real live anti-Semites.

My take is that the non-involved, if you will, are using this conflict/issue simply to boost their own positions of moral superiority in the name of *social justice*

I can see their point too, but in the months that I've been following this issue I see more inflammatory rhetoric, more disconnection from reality, more willingness to excuse, and more application of double standards on the pro-Palestinian side than I do on the other.

Once, months ago someone posted that there were different standards of conduct in the world, standards for developing countries, standards for western countries, and standards for Israel. That's a paraphrase and although I was hesitant to acknowledge it at the time, I've come to believe that's true.

Maybe I don't understand anti-Semitism. I don't know many Jewish people but once I posted on this forum that i didn't like israelis, the young ones I met on trips to Thailand, not because they were Jewish, but because they were the most arrogant and inconsiderate *group* I've ever run across.

Gumboot, made a post in response to that comment, giving me reason to consider WHY they might be behaving in this manner and I accepted it, not because it was something I hadn't thought of, but because if i were in the shoes of those young Israelis, I'd be pissed off too.

Maybe my growing up atheist has something to do with my not understanding anti Semitism ? I'm by no means anti-religion ( well, sometimes I am but only when it tries to tell me how to live ) so I've never been a member of a "competing" spiritual group.

Or...you may be right. the anti-Zionists might be motivated by anti-semitism and just very careful to mask it by their use of language. I highly contest that position though. I see Jewish ( self identified ) people who are anti-Zionist and let's face it a HUGE part of the social justice mindset is anti-racism ( except against white people, but that lies in how they define the word racism ) and any "suspicions" of anti-semitism within that group would quickly be shouted down as being what it is...racism.

Yea, Jews control the world/USA/media/Hollywood. There's real anti-Semitism for you with. I think we all agree, here at least, that those people are to be ridiculed.

Not every criticism of Black people is racist. But this hardly means that someone who is obsessed with Blacks and constantly tells us about how their IQ is lower and their behavior stupid and dangerous, can claim he "isn't anti-black, just anti-low-intelligence" simply because he avoids the N-word and speaks about "people of inferior genetic composition" instead.

Interesting analogy, but flawed in comparison to this issue though. If there were a government of low intelligence people whose actions we could be critical of, then we could draw parallels.

 

[funk de fino]

Evidence?

I have posted videos that show his lies. Stop being an ignorant troll.

 

[Skeptic]

Once, months ago someone posted that there were different standards of conduct in the world, standards for developing countries, standards for western countries, and standards for Israel. That's a paraphrase and although I was hesitant to acknowledge it at the time, I've come to believe that's true.

Originally this is a quote by Benjamin Netanyahu, the current (and former) Israeli PM. My take on it is that it is true, and we can see from the use of three standards of behavior that it also shows anti-Islamic bias, not merely anti-Jewish one.

Those who employ this triple standard -- much of the "enlightened" European left, for example -- give Jews an impossibly high standard to match, so that they could be blamed for anything they do. They demand from "normal" (read: White, Western) people a "normal" standard of behavior. They have insultingly low, indeed nonexistent, demands for moral behavior from the Islamic world (and the third world in general), because you can't expect much from savage darkies, anyway.

Maybe I don't understand anti-Semitism. I don't know many Jewish people but once I posted on this forum that i didn't like israelis, the young ones I met on trips to Thailand, not because they were Jewish, but because they were the most arrogant and inconsiderate *group* I've ever run across.

(Sighhhhhhhh....)

You're telling me.

The obnoxious behavior of Israeli tourists is so notorious, that many places now, out of sad experience, have signs to the effect of "no Israelis wanted" -- not because they are "anti-zionist" or "anti-Israeli" or even know what zionism is, or where Israel is, but simply because of their behavior. Sometimes the signs say "no Jews" -- again, not because they hate Jews, but that the only thing they know about the Israeli tourists is that they're Jews and that those are the only Jews they get in their hotel. The average Israeli -- and, alas, this apply also to Israeli diplomats and politicians -- often has the grace, tact, and manners of a drunken elephant in a china shop.

What is the reaction of Israeli official bodies, and the Israeli press, to this "no Israelies wanted" phenomena? Screaming, "antisemites!" and "double standard!"? No. Many recent articles about this in the Israeli papers have, almost invariably, put the blame squarely on the Israeli tourists. The Israeli tourist ministry started a program to educate young people who are leaving the country on a "world tour" of south America or the east on how to behave. Let's hope it helps, and gets over the "I was a soldier / officer / pilot / gunner / medic / clerk / latrine attendant in the Israeli Army -- you don't have to teach me anything, you... you... Jew-hater!" cockiness of the average Israeli tourist in dealing with others abroad.

So you see, as I said -- not every criticism of Israel or Israelies is antisemitic, or is taken as such.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Could we stop talking about anti-semitism in a thread which is based on a person who no-one has shown any evidence for is anti-semitic? It really does not belong here.

 

[Skeptic]

Could we stop talking about anti-semitism in a thread which is based on a person who no-one has shown any evidence for is anti-semitic? .

Welllllllllll, except the "giving tons of money to Hamas to kill Jews with" thingy.

 

[IDB87]

Could we stop talking about anti-semitism in a thread which is based on a person who no-one has shown any evidence for is anti-semitic? It really does not belong here.

We are still waiting for the 'out of context' videos of George Galloway.

 

[WildCat]

We are still waiting for the 'out of context' videos of George Galloway.

I'm sure that the clip I posted of him giving money to Hamas started immediately after he announced the whole thing was merely a play, and the money was actually Monopoly money or something, and enoy the show.

 

[funk de fino]

As the very act that he repudiates the most, I dare you to back up that he "isn't opposed to killing".

He asked the arab armies to come and help the Iraqis against the West.

Help them do what?

 

[Stout]

I suppose we could always amuse ourselves while we're waiting for those videos by making George Galloway Richard heene comparisons. Naaaa, anti-Semitism is more interesting.

Originally this is a quote by Benjamin Netanyahu, the current (and former) Israeli PM. My take on it is that it is true, and we can see from the use of three standards of behavior that it also shows anti-Islamic bias, not merely anti-Jewish one.

.

I'm not seeing the anti-Islamic bias unless I go down this road.

They have insultingly low, indeed nonexistent, demands for moral behavior from the Islamic world (and the third world in general), because you can't expect much from savage darkies, anyway.

I'm hesitant to do so because I'm seeing more of a painting the Islamic world as victims reacting to bullying from the west mindset, than anything implying that the "savage darkies" should get a free pass because they're somehow less socially evolved.

I do agree that in certain circles anything critical of Islamic practices is seen as outright racism and i strongly disagree with this sentiment. preferring instead to call a spade a spade. hey, wait, was that a racist comment Like using the word denigrate ? Damn, anti-oppression politics is a minefield sometimes.

The obnoxious behavior of Israeli tourists is so notorious, that many places now, out of sad experience, have signs to the effect of "no Israelis wanted" -- not because they are "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Israeli" or even know what Zionism is, or where Israel is, but simply because of their behavior

Excellent.

I heard about, and looked for these signs in Thailand because i wanted to photograph one. I was unsuccessful in finding any but I did have some Thai bungalow operators tell me that if they suspect someone is Israeli, they double the rates in hopes of driving them somewhere else. Hummm, I can't find that photo I took of a sign outside a Cambodian bar saying that handgrenades weren't allowed inside.

So you see, as I said -- not every criticism of Israel or Israelies is antisemitic, or is taken as such.

Exactly. Out of all the Israelis i talked to about their image abroad, not one ever raised the issue of anti-Semitism which makes the arguments against the actions of the Israeli government being framed as anti-Semitism rather tedious.

 

[WildCat]

Hummm, I can't find that photo I took of a sign outside a Cambodian bar saying that handgrenades weren't allowed inside.

That's because they fear the wrath of the Amazon Woman.

Woe be to those who serve an unlicensed hand grenade at a bar!

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Praise be to FSM:

Seat Winner - Poplar and Limehouse

Next General Election Constituency Betting

Conservatives 1.90
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