Moderated Views on George Galloway.

Stout said:
Marc, I've spent a lot of time this past couple of weeks trying to "debunk" your posts/information, yesterday's being your claim about Hamas imposing oppressive restrictions on bathing. So far I've been unable to do so.:)
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Excerpted from the Palestinian newspaper, Al-Ayyam (9/3/09)...

Hamas in Gaza today maintains a type of tyranny... and seeks, through undemocratic means of coercion and despotism, to enact laws that enforce their ideology and their party's world-view on the entire Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip...

Hamas enforces [wearing of] the headscarf and long gown (hijab and jalabiya) on female lawyers and students; it acts to separate the sexes in government departments by imposing a separation between the sexes in offices and waiting rooms, and it has prohibited mixed folk dancing. Most dangerous, it has established Morality Units, run jointly by the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Religious Affairs, which ask couples who walk on the beach to present a marriage contract, and ask any woman walking alone on the beach to have an escort [male relative], and prohibit laughing and talking for women [in public], and have issued a religious ruling (fatwa) prohibiting men from swimming in shorts, with the rest of their bodies naked.
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Has Galloway condemned Hamas oppression of its people?
 
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Zeuzzz said:
What would you define a masacre? Death-wise.
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Numbers in the multiple-hundreds (minimum) certainly count. Galloway is trying to deny that there was a single one. You have apparently decided to join Galloway in his apologetics for the communist tyranny's slaughter of its own citizens.

None so blind as those who will not see. You have chosen not to see what Galloway is and does, just as Galloway has chosen not to see what the Chinese communists are and do.
 
Marc39 said:
Excerpted from the Palestinian newspaper, Al-Ayyam (9/3/09)...



Has Galloway condemned Hamas oppression of its people?
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Cheers Marc, I searched through human rights sites before ending up on the Jerusalem Post. I'm unsure whether I should trust google translations of Arabic.

I've never seen anybody on the far left condemn Hamas's subjugation of it's people ( save TFT last winter ) and this whole issue seems to revolve around *anti-western* agenda more than anything.

Seriously..if I were a Palestinian, I'd much rather be lorded over by Israel than radical Islam. No shorts on the beach ? sheesh what kind of lunatic oppression is that and why would "the left" support such nonsense ?

I can't see Galloway handing the cash over to Hamas directly as anything other that showing his solidarity with this oppressive regime and I'd really like to hear from the people who donated to Galloway's convoy what their take on where their money went is.
 
Stout said:
Seriously..if I were a Palestinian, I'd much rather be lorded over by Israel than radical Islam. No shorts on the beach ? sheesh what kind of lunatic oppression is that and why would "the left" support such nonsense ?
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Very perceptive statement.

In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.

Palestinians enjoyed freedom of speech, including anti-Semitic rhetoric, and freedom of religion. Today, Christians are being persecuted out of Gaza and the West Bank by Muslims, with only 50,000 remaining. Israel's Christian population is approx. 200,000.

Billions of dollars in Israeli and US venture capital are, today, begging to be invested in turning the Palestinian territories into the Riviera of the Middle East. Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel.

Galloway is hurting Palestinians more than helping them by sticking his nose in their business and inciting hostility against Israel.
 
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Marc39 said:
Very perceptive statement.

In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.

Palestinians enjoyed freedom of speech, including anti-Semitic rhetoric, and freedom of religion. Today, Christians are being persecuted out of Gaza and the West Bank by Muslims, with only 50,000 remaining. Israel's Christian population is approx. 200,000.

Billions of dollars in Israeli and US venture capital are, today, begging to be invested in turning the Palestinian territories into the Riviera of the Middle East. Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel.

Galloway is hurting Palestinians more than helping them by sticking his nose in their business and inciting hostility against Israel.
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Yes, the Israeli government really loved Yasser Arafat ...
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
Actually Zionist Genocide Denial, like Holocaust Denial is not funny.
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You cannot substantiate genocide of Palestinians by Israel because no genocide has occurred. Such an allegation is a flat-out lie.

In 1948, when Israeli statehood was declared, the Arab population in the Middle East was around 70 million.

Today, the Arab population is approx. 350 million, with projections of 400 million within the coming years.

The Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank in 1948 was 600,000, or so. Today, there are 5 million Palestinians in the area.

A couple hundred thousand Palestinians lived in Israel in 1948. Today? 1.5 million Palestinians.

As I said, no genocide is occurring.
 
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Tin Foil Timothy said:
A shame that one's death by the evil hands of some racist entity like Zionism is devalued becuase your part of a total that is less than number x. :rolleyes:
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9/11 was not a genocide, though the perpetrators were as evil as they come, and the deaths as horrific as can be imagined. Do I devalue the deaths of any of those victims by saying that? No, I do not. Why does refusing to call the deaths of people in Gaza a genocide amount to devaluing them? It does not. Why? For the same reason: it wasn't a genocide. Which is why you can't actually defend your claim, you can only attack me.
 
Marc39 said:
In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.
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Yes, I'd read that here before ( Wildcat posted IIRC ) and when I checked it out, it proved to be true however I don't have any handy links to back that up so I'll just go on the assumption that life in Palestine didn't suck as hard pre 2000 as it does today.

Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel
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That's where I have a hard time understanding "the Palestinians" and by extension, the western supporters of Palestine's right to self determination like Galloway ( see Zuezzz, this is all revalent to the OP ) who have to know that all the Palestinians have to do is eliminate this state of belligerence to force Israel's hand over the Oslo accords. IN other words, mellow out and you'll get your state. simple. Sure it might take a decade or two to convince the world that the Palis are acting in good faith but if they continue the status quo, IMO, they're going nowhere fast.

Sometimes i wonder whether the Palestinians are simply being used as pawns by both radical Islam and the anti-western left. I'm usually pretty hesitant to cite movies as sources, but not too long ago I watched that movie, Where in the World Is Osama Bin Laden ? and the one recurring theme was "ordinary Muslims" rejection of radical Islam and all the problems that come with it.

If we look at just how fellow Arab nations treat Palestinians eg 200-400k in camps in Lebanon, and the claims that those conditions are being used to support the right of return and we look at the anti-western left's outright refusal to decry the conditions that these Palestinians are being subjected to it would seem that characters like Galloway are more interested in continuing the fight to *prove* their own moral superiority than genuine concern for the Palestinian people.
 
Stout said:
That's where I have a hard time understanding "the Palestinians" and by extension, the western supporters of Palestine's right to self determination like Galloway ( see Zuezzz, this is all revalent to the OP ) who have to know that all the Palestinians have to do is eliminate this state of belligerence to force Israel's hand over the Oslo accords. IN other words, mellow out and you'll get your state. simple. Sure it might take a decade or two to convince the world that the Palis are acting in good faith but if they continue the status quo, IMO, they're going nowhere fast.

Sometimes i wonder whether the Palestinians are simply being used as pawns by both radical Islam and the anti-western left. I'm usually pretty hesitant to cite movies as sources, but not too long ago I watched that movie, Where in the World Is Osama Bin Laden ? and the one recurring theme was "ordinary Muslims" rejection of radical Islam and all the problems that come with it.

If we look at just how fellow Arab nations treat Palestinians eg 200-400k in camps in Lebanon, and the claims that those conditions are being used to support the right of return and we look at the anti-western left's outright refusal to decry the conditions that these Palestinians are being subjected to it would seem that characters like Galloway are more interested in continuing the fight to *prove* their own moral superiority than genuine concern for the Palestinian people.
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"Mellow out and you'll get your state" in large part sums up the solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it was the first time in history that the Palestinians had independence. No Ottoman rule. No British rule. No Egyptian rule (Egypt occupied Gaza 1948-1967*). No Israeli rule.

What did the Palestinians do? Did they dance with joy in the streets? Did they hug and kiss each other? Were there parades? Did they set out to create a Palestinian state?

No. They immediately launched rockets into Israel. Then, they proceeeded to loot and destroy state-of-the-art greenhouses, built by Israel to grow vegetables and flowers for export and gifted to Gazans by wealthy Jewish benefactors.**

Today, Gaza, the first model of Palestinian statehood, is a complete catastrophe.

Galloway sees the effects of failure, but, not the causes.

*When Egypt Was In Gaza
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1244034989178

**http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...ddleeast_August527.xml&section=middleeast&col
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-13-mideast_x.htm
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/060716/24edit.htm
 
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Marc39 said:
This is a list of terrorists assassinated by the IDF, similar to US tactics in killing members of al-Qaeda.

So, a comparison can be made between Israeli and American "ideologies"
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Yeah right. And think, these people are completely above the law.
 
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Okay, so without getting bogged down in things irrelevant to GG lets continue with the last.

George was disputing the fact that there was a massacre of students inside the square, as this is the vivid image that has been created by the world media in everyones minds eye. You know? Of the tanksrolling in, and then slaughtering everyone left. He says the reality is quite different.

First of all, if there was a massacre, it wasn't in the square, so to call it the timnhanh square is factually incorrect. There may have been skimishes around the sorrounding area that caused fatalities, but the soldiers did not open fire on their own men in the sqaure and they went peacefully.
 
Oi !!! Gain independence and destroy a valuable method of food production in the most densely populated area in the world. Rather than questioning the Palestinians overall intelligence, I'd prefer to ask instead, was this a particular political faction that carried out this act or was it "the Palestinian citizenry" doing this strictly out of spite.

Seems to me that these guys constantly make the wrong decisions, like aligning themselves with Iraq during the first Gulf War which led to their eventual expulsion from Kuwait and severely damaged the economy of Palestine. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot.

Gaza sure didn't look like a "place to be" under Egyptian rule, which moots my thoughts wondering why Gaza wouldn't want to be "absorbed" by Egypt to escape the influences of the Israelis.

Galloway sees the effects of failure, but, not the causes.
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So it would appear and it's my hope that Galloway, well more specifically his supporters will eventually take a more holistic view of this situation and attribute "some of the blame" to the Palestinian leadership ( and the greater Arab world ) for this ongoing humanitarian disaster rather than attribute it all to Israel. That is, if they're actually interested in seeing this situation solved rather than displaying their high moral dudgeon.
 
george galloway said:
'Rise up, rise up and demolish the tyrant, the dictator Mubarak'
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Goading Egyptians into the overthrow of Mubarak. Thought he was anti violence?

Strange call for one who supported the re-election of Irans president. A lot on the left were not too happy with that one.
 
funk de fino said:
An old piece from the left about Galloway.

Some interesting stuff about his sources of money.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/905
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Ahh, yes. His sources of money. At the same time as nearly HALF the british MPs are being told to pay back taxpayers money they illegally stole from us, Galloway has been found to not have taken a dime.

And that article is extremely biased, but this is a good point:
Framed up?

Is Galloway the victim of a frame-up by the Daily Telegraph and/or the British secret service? It is certainly possible that he is. We do not know.

The Telegraph's charges were based on documents allegedly found in a ruined office in Baghdad. Among other documents found there were correspondence with Edward Heath, Robin Cook, and a cleric. Those people have confirmed that the correspondence was genuine.
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