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Vatican demonstrates its compassion once again

OK, first of all, abortion is allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Granted, I would assume a 9 year old would face some serious health risks from giving birth, but that isn't the point here. So, self proclaimed skeptics, put away the hyperbole.

Second, yes, the animal that committed the rape can attend services this Sunday, if he isn't in a deep dark whole the local authorities threw him in. Also, he can't receive Eucharist, which is essential to the Catholic Mass. If you believe in hell, he's on his way there.

Remember, rape is illegal and carries a very steep penalty. Abortion isn't. That is why the Vatican took measures against the mother and doctor, but not the scumbag.

Another detail is, the excommunication was automatic. There was no process or anything. You abort a child, you are out. You can, however, get back in.
 
Which I assume is based on the premise that she was too young to have made the decision to have the abortion.

I've mentioned my general dislike for abortions before. This is certainly a case I have little trouble with. I say "little trouble" because while I still dislike the idea, I like the idea of a 9 year old mother less.

Question for those wise in the ways of the Vatican, can these people ask for forgiveness or something, and be brought back into the fold, as it were? Since those excommunicated priest were re-communicated (?) recently, I assume there is something they can do to "right their wrong".

Just idle curiosity.
I'm with you. If a grown woman gets pregnant after consentual, unprotected sex I frown on abortion but when a woman or especially a child gets raped and pregnant I tend to agree with the decision to abort the fetus. I feel sorry about the poor kid and the parents and the doctors. If I were a Catholic I'd protest this decision until they excommunicated me.
 
OK, first of all, abortion is allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Granted, I would assume a 9 year old would face some serious health risks from giving birth, but that isn't the point here. So, self proclaimed skeptics, put away the hyperbole.

Second, yes, the animal that committed the rape can attend services this Sunday, if he isn't in a deep dark whole the local authorities threw him in. Also, he can't receive Eucharist, which is essential to the Catholic Mass. If you believe in hell, he's on his way there.

Remember, rape is illegal and carries a very steep penalty. Abortion isn't. That is why the Vatican took measures against the mother and doctor, but not the scumbag.

Another detail is, the excommunication was automatic. There was no process or anything. You abort a child, you are out. You can, however, get back in.

But raping little girls is not problematic from a religious point of view.
 
OK, first of all, abortion is allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Granted, I would assume a 9 year old would face some serious health risks from giving birth, but that isn't the point here. So, self proclaimed skeptics, put away the hyperbole.

Incorrect. Under the Articles of Canon Law there is no exemption and no mitigation.

"Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication."

The health risk was why the abortion took place, the automatic sentence of excommunication is why the outrage.

Steve
 
Incorrect. Under the Articles of Canon Law there is no exemption and no mitigation.

"Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication."

The health risk was why the abortion took place, the automatic sentence of excommunication is why the outrage.

Steve

That is when abortion is the end. When it used as a means to save a life, it is not excommunicable.

Although, I will agree that such an exception should apply here.

And can someone explain to me how the hell a 9 year old got pregnant?
 
Why? He has plenty of time to repent. He is a catholic in good standing after all.

He is not in good standing. He has a mortal sin on his soul. The mother and doctor are in better shape than he is.

And, by the time his prison mates are done with, I doubt he'll have much belief in God anyway.
 
That is when abortion is the end. When it used as a means to save a life, it is not excommunicable.

I do not think that is quite right either

The Catholic Encyclopaedia said:
It is evident that the determination of what is right or wrong in human conduct belongs to the science of ethics and the teaching of religious authority. Both of these declare the Divine law, "Thou shalt not kill". The embryonic child, as seen above, has a human soul; and therefore is a man from the time of its conception; therefore it has an equal right to its life with its mother; therefore neither the mother, nor medical practitioner, nor any human being whatever can lawfully take that life away. The State cannot give such right to the physician; for it has not itself the right to put an innocent person to death. No matter how desirable it might seem to be at times to save the life of the mother, common sense teaches and all nations accept the maxim, that "evil is never to be done that good may come of it"; or, which is the same thing, that "a good end cannot justify a bad means". Now it is an evil means to destroy the life of an innocent child. The plea cannot be made that the child is an unjust aggressor. It is simply where nature and its own parents have put it. Therefore, Natural Law forbids any attempt at destroying fetal life.
The teachings of the Catholic Church admit of no doubt on the subject. Such moral questions, when they are submitted, are decided by the Tribunal of the Holy Office. Now this authority decreed, 28 May, 1884, and again, 18 August, 1889, that "it cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform . . . any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother." Abortion was condemned by name, 24 July, 1895, in answer to the question whether when the mother is in immediate danger of death and there is no other means of saving her life, a physician can with a safe conscience cause abortion not by destroying the child in the womb (which was explicitly condemned in the former decree), but by giving it a chance to be born alive, though not being yet viable, it would soon expire. The answer was that he cannot. After these and other similar decisions had been given, some moralists thought they saw reasons to doubt whether an exception might not be allowed in the case of ectopic gestations. Therefore the question was submitted: "Is it ever allowed to extract from the body of the mother ectopic embryos still immature, before the sixth month after conception is completed?" The answer given, 20 March, 1902, was: "No; according to the decree of 4 May, 1898; according to which, as far as possible, earnest and opportune provision is to be made to safeguard the life of the child and of the mother. As to the time, let the questioner remember that no acceleration of birth is licit unless it be done at a time, and in ways in which, according to the usual course of things, the life of the mother and the child be provided for". Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.
However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. Moralists agree that we are not always prohibited from doing what is lawful in itself, though evil consequences may follow which we do not desire. The good effects of our acts are then directly intended, and the regretted evil consequences are reluctantly permitted to follow because we cannot avoid them. The evil thus permitted is said to be indirectly intended. It is not imputed to us provided four conditions are verified, namely:

That we do not wish the evil effects, but make all reasonable efforts to avoid them;
That the immediate effect be good in itself;
That the evil is not made a means to obtain the good effect; for this would be to do evil that good might come of it -- a procedure never allowed;
That the good effect be as important at least as the evil effect.
All four conditions may be verified in treating or operating on a woman with child. The death of the child is not intended, and every reasonable precaution is taken to save its life; the immediate effect intended, the mother's life, is good -- no harm is done to the child in order to save the mother -- the saving of the mother's life is in itself as good as the saving of the child's life
 
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OK, first of all, abortion is allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Granted, I would assume a 9 year old would face some serious health risks from giving birth, but that isn't the point here. So, self proclaimed skeptics, put away the hyperbole.

<snip>

The "serious health risks" faced by the child were judged by the doctors to be DEATH. Are you, the Catholic Church or the Pope any more qualified than her doctors? :boggled:

If the Church had its way, she would be dead. I'm sure this is exactly what God intended. Seesh.
 
As noted above: death of the mother is not enough to make abortion allowable. The question of who is more qualified does not arise
 
As noted above: death of the mother is not enough to make abortion allowable. The question of who is more qualified does not arise

Sorry? I am not a Catholic, I am not a Christian, I have no religious beliefs. Of course the question arises. :mad:
 
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That is when abortion is the end. When it used as a means to save a life, it is not excommunicable.

Although, I will agree that such an exception should apply here.

And can someone explain to me how the hell a 9 year old got pregnant?

She, the 9-year old, was raped by her stepfather.
 
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Sorry? I am not a Catholic, I am not a Christian, I have no religious beliefs. Of course the question arises. :mad:

Sorry if that confused you, Gord_in_Toronto. You were responding to a post which said that abortion was allowed if the mother's life was in danger. Since the abortion led to the excommunication, it seemed to me to follow that it was implicit in Donal's post that there was no threat to her life: and I further inferred that you were protesting the church's competence to evaluate that risk in face of medical opinion

Since Donal's premise does not seem to be correct then, for the church, the danger to her life is not at issue: therefore the question of who is to judge whether her life is at risk is not relevant. The abortion is not allowed in any case. So it is moot.

It is not a position I take myself but I thought I was addressing an exchange which had accepted a common premise and gone on to discuss the implications. I was clearly wrong, and I am sorry to have muddied the water
 
OK, first of all, abortion is allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Granted, I would assume a 9 year old would face some serious health risks from giving birth, but that isn't the point here. So, self proclaimed skeptics, put away the hyperbole.

Second, yes, the animal that committed the rape can attend services this Sunday, if he isn't in a deep dark whole the local authorities threw him in. Also, he can't receive Eucharist, which is essential to the Catholic Mass. If you believe in hell, he's on his way there.

Remember, rape is illegal and carries a very steep penalty. Abortion isn't. That is why the Vatican took measures against the mother and doctor, but not the scumbag.

Another detail is, the excommunication was automatic. There was no process or anything. You abort a child, you are out. You can, however, get back in.


None of this makes the Vatican's position any less disgusting.
 
I read about this earlier and my knee-jerk reaction was not much in favor of the senior cleric. There's something odd about this story, and I'm sure a lot of important parts are missing.

Why would the church even bother with the excommunication? Surely they knew that this decision would cast a very dark shadow indeed. Is abortion such an important topic that they couldn't simply have ignored this particular case? Or are there local political aspects to this, that forced the church to get involved?

Perhaps this was done deliberately to make a splash.

There could very well be a power strugle within the church on how harsh and unforgiven it should be. This could be a show of power from the hardliners.
It will also send a strong signal to the faithfull that wishy washy religion with all kinds of exceptions is not acceptable.
 
That is when abortion is the end. When it used as a means to save a life, it is not excommunicable.

Then what were the doctors and the mother excommunicated for? Jaywalking?

And can someone explain to me how the hell a 9 year old got pregnant

Well, when a male puts his erect penis into a female's vagina....

Snark aside, not everyone starts puberty at the same age.
 
As noted above: death of the mother is not enough to make abortion allowable. The question of who is more qualified does not arise
.
The way I remember hearing 60 years ago, the mother's death is preferred over that of the child.
 

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