Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[dafydd]

How does that address the question put to you?

Clayton never addresses the questions put to him. He has no answers. I presume that everyone is keeping this thread going for the laughs.

 

[Bingowings]

The above nonsense causation is easily invalidated.

Go on then, invalidate it. Your previous claims in this thread have been beaten so hard with the peer-review mallet they must be one atom thick by now. Why not add another unsupported assertion to the pile to bulk it up again?

I presume that everyone is keeping this thread going for the laughs.

I want Clayton to answer the questions asked of him, to address the evidence presented which disproves his claims in an honest way and to admit, just once, that he may be wrong.

Unfortunately what I expect will happen is that we'll be presented with a three hour YouTube talking-head or we'll be given links to scientific papers which show the facts are actually diametrically opposed to whatever claim is being made this week. Otherwise we'll be given anecdotes presented as evidence and these, within hours, will be shown to be incorrect with links to data showing them to be so.

These rebuttals will be either studiously ignored or petulantly dismissed and then the very same thoroughly debunked claims will reappear a few pages later as if they hadn't been demolished only days previously and, more insultingly, as if we didn't remember them demolishing them in the first place.

Same as happens in every conspiracy theory thread. And yet we keep replying. "You dumb babies!"

 

[Clayton Moore]

how on earth can asthma and autism impact on evolution?

what does MMR have to do with Autism and Asthma, you have proved no link to date

Think about it. Asthma is the immune system breaking down. How does that happen?

An intelligent person, without a vested interest, would venture that someone was tinkering with a tried and true immune system.

 

[LSSBB]

Go on then, invalidate it. Your previous claims in this thread have been beaten so hard with the peer-review mallet they must be one atom thick by now. Why not add another unsupported assertion to the pile to bulk it up again?



I want Clayton to answer the questions asked of him, to address the evidence presented which disproves his claims in an honest way and to admit, just once, that he may be wrong.

Unfortunately what I expect will happen is that we'll be presented with a three hour YouTube talking-head or we'll be given links to scientific papers which show the facts are actually diametrically opposed to whatever claim is being made this week. Otherwise we'll be given anecdotes presented as evidence and these, within hours, will be shown to be incorrect with links to data showing them to be so.

These rebuttals will be either studiously ignored or petulantly dismissed and then the very same thoroughly debunked claims will reappear a few pages later as if they hadn't been demolished only days previously and, more insultingly, as if we didn't remember them demolishing them in the first place.

Same as happens in every conspiracy theory thread. And yet we keep replying. "You dumb babies!"

You forgot also, any direct personal testimony by forum members, which is contrary to CM's stated views, will be discounted because of how the member refers to other members of their family.

 

[Estellea]

The father and judge are idiots.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/asthma/what-causes-asthma.php

The above is idiocy.

For a keyboard warrior such as yourself pretending to care about autism, why don't you know that autistics and parents find that term offensive?

I knew one kid who had asthma when I was a kid. Everyone smoked and second hand was almost first hand smoke everywhere. Yet the asthma surge didn't begin till a decade after people, including myself, began to wise up about smoking in the 70s.

Vaccines are the likely cause of the onslaught of asthma in children.

I'm sure statistical charts for autism, asthma, and required vaccine schedules could be taken as overlays of each other.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-are-asthma-rates-soaring

the body pounces on harmless particles—such as dust and ragweed
Isn't that exactly what vaccines cause the body to do when the vaccine's "virus" is encountered?

Clay, please do share the mechanism by which vaccines "are the likely cause of asthma"? And if you are so sure that the "statistical charts" overlay each other in any meaningful way then you would have no problem presenting that too.

Este

 

[crhkrebs]

Think about it. Asthma is the immune system breaking down. How does that happen?

I have thought about it.....you are wrong. Asthma is not "the immune system breaking down". It's much more complex than that. There is a well shown genetic component to this disease, on top of clearly delineated environmental factors. There are forms of asthma that affect those who are not typical asthmatics, such as "exercise asthma". And then there are some, like myself, who seem to have grown out of their asthma attacks.

What we do know is that there is NO single shred of any evidence for a correlation between immunization and asthma. Kind of like the situation with immunization and autism, Clayton.

An intelligent person, without a vested interest, would venture that someone was tinkering with a tried and true immune system.

I have no financial interest in this topic, and I am intelligent enough to know that there was no magical time when everyone had a perfectly working "tried and true immune system". I don't even think you know what you are talking about here.

I do know asthma was described by the ancient Egyptians. It was also described by the ancient Greeks. In fact, "asthma" is derived from the ancient Greek word for "panting".

An intelligent person should wonder how immunization would apply to those historical facts.

And while you are pondering that, how is the proof that the MMR vaccine causes autism coming along? Remember, you promised to produce this?

 

[abaddon]

Think about it. Asthma is the immune system breaking down. How does that happen?

An intelligent person, without a vested interest, would venture that someone was tinkering with a tried and true immune system.

CM I know for a fact that diagnosis has expanded. My own eldest daughter is diagnosed as asthmatic.

She has never had an attack, nor any symptoms at all. In former times, she would have been told to go about her business like anyone else.

Why do you think that is?

ETA: and why do you think this adds to the statistics?

 

[Bingowings]

Asthma is the immune system breaking down.

Is it? How does the reaction of an asthma sufferer's alveoli when faced with foreign particulates differ mechanically from inflammation of the conjunctiva when sand is kicked in one's face?

How does that happen?

I don't know but I'm going to find out. Are you?

An intelligent person, without a vested interest, would venture that someone was tinkering with a tried and true immune system.

YOU would come to that conclusion because you have an agenda. No-one knows what CAUSES asthma. There is a strong genetic correlation but the genetic carrier, if it exists, is as yet undiscovered. However, most people have an idea what exacerbates the symptoms. You wouldn't puff your Cuban cigar smoke into an asthma sufferer's face, nor would you expect them to thrive in a coal mine.

Let's pretend that asthma is an autoimmune disorder and is definitely caused by the MMR vaccine (for the laughs, dafydd). Can this be said of all disorders in which a person's immune system works against them? Coeliac disease? Crohn's? MS? Type one diabetes? What about people who go into anaphylactic shock when a bee stings them? All caused by vaccinations? If so, why? If not, why not? All these things existed before MMR.

any direct personal testimony by forum members

For the purposes of fairness I too would discount them. Evidence, not anecdotes. However, I wouldn't call you a liar for sharing your story.

I know for a fact that diagnosis has expanded

I did write "diagnosed != extant" at one point but deleted it. You can't accurately compare the historical morbidity of a certain ailment with that of the recorded figures today due to expanding and contracting diagnostic boundaries. So I won't.

 

[jdc324]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

18,407 children (11.0%) developed asthma, with a median age at onset of 11 months. The relative risks (95% confidence intervals) of asthma were: 0.92 (0.83 to 1.02) for diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine; 1.09 (0.9 to 1.23) for oral polio vaccine; 0.97 (0.91 to 1.04) for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine; 1.18 (1.02 to 1.36) for Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib); and 1.20 (1.13 to 1.27) for hepatitis B vaccine. The Hib result was not consistent across health maintenance organizations. In a subanalysis restricted to children who had at least 2 medical care encounters during their first year, the relative risks decreased to 1.07 (0.71 to 1.60) for Hib and 1.09 (0.88 to 1.34) for hepatitis B vaccine.

There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.

 

[Bingowings]

Otherwise we'll be given anecdotes presented as evidence and these, within hours, will be shown to be incorrect with links to data showing them to be so.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

Where's my million, Randi?

 

[Dcdrac]

this seems very clear Clayton no association at all

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

 

[Alareth]

CM I know for a fact that diagnosis has expanded. My own eldest daughter is diagnosed as asthmatic.

She has never had an attack, nor any symptoms at all. In former times, she would have been told to go about her business like anyone else.

Why do you think that is?

ETA: and why do you think this adds to the statistics?

Obviously Big Pharma needs more people diagnosed with asthma so it can keep the albuterol dollars flowing in.

 

[pakeha]

Think asthma and autism.

...Vaccines are the likely cause of the onslaught of asthma in children. ..

Onslaught of asthma in children?
Could you explain the link between vaccines and asthma a bit more clearly, please?

 

[Robrob]

Think about it. Asthma is the immune system breaking down. How does that happen?

An intelligent person, without a vested interest, would venture that someone was tinkering with a tried and true immune system.

Anyone posted this to the Stundie page yet?

 

[swright777]

Anyone posted this to the Stundie page yet?

Many people don't nominate him anymore because he can't win any more trophies. Some unwritten rule about going pro after 100 nominations I think.

 

[dafydd]

Anyone posted this to the Stundie page yet?

A tried and true immune system. Stundieworth. Clayton has obviously never heard of smallpox, polio and the Black Death.

 

[Reality Check]

Think asthma and autism.

Think typical, probably dumb answer to a question, Clayton Moore .
Genetic mutation (the probable causes of asthma and autism) does not "destabilize" evolution. They are a fundamental part of evolution.

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore's 31 statements and 222 days of ignorance and delusion

1. Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
2. 
   First asked 4 March 2013 - 222 days and counting!
3. Clayton Moore, Do you really think that autism is a form of cancer?
   First asked 8 April 2013 - 190 days and counting
4. Clayton Moore, Please cite the scientific evidence for levels of carcinogens in vaccines enough to affect the vaccinated.
   First asked 8 April 2013 - 188 days and counting
5. Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause allergies.
   First asked 10 April 2013 - 188 days and counting
6. Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause cancer.
   First asked 10 April 2013 - 188 days and counting
7. Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause MS.
   First asked 10 April 2013 - 188 days and counting
8. Clayton Moore: are you rational enough to understand that 2002 is not 2013, etc.
   First asked 18 April 2013 - 180 days and counting
9. Clayton Moore, Please cite your evidence for the rise of autism between 1978 and 1988
   First asked 26th April 2013 - 173 days and counting
10. Clayton Moore, Are you intelligent enough to cite the science that vaccines can cause asthma?
    First asked 30th April 2013 - 165 days and counting
11. Clayton Moore: Sources for 60 years ago there was little fear of the measles, mumps, or chicken pox
    First asked 14 May 2013 - 154 days and counting
12. Clayton Moore: Evidence for the increase in chronically sick people in the USA
    First asked 15 May 2013 - 153 days and counting
13. Clayton Moore, Exactly how is the Danish study "bogus"?
    First asked 24 May 2013 - 144 days and counting
14. Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
    First asked 10 June 2013 - 126 days and counting
15. Clayton Moore, Have you any idea what a citation to the scientific literature is?
    Your continued citations of crank web sites says no!
    First asked 13 June 2013 - 125 days and counting
16. Clayton Moore, Cite the evidence that Al in vaccines increases Alzheimer’s Disease
    First asked 14 June 2013 - 123 days and counting
17. Clayton Moore, Please give the source for the cause of death of this "little girl"
    This will actually take a while because you made up a fantasy about the cause while the ME's verdict is outstanding.
    First asked 17 June 2013 - 119 days and counting
18. Clayton Moore, Can you cite the evidence that support your statement that vaccines are a "debacle"?
    First asked 24 June 2013 - 112 days and counting
19. Clayton Moore, Show that drug companies have a "poor drug testing track record"
    First asked 25 June 2013 - 111 days and counting
20. Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that the medical community is "basically" never taken to task on the safety of vaccines?
    First asked 25 June 2013 - 111 days and counting
21. The delusion of citing an upcoming film from an ignorant, paranoid anit-vaxer (Jeff Hays interviews the quack Andrew Wakefield!)
22. The delusion that there are mysterious "additives" in vaccines that harm children.
    Clayton Moore, Please supply a list of the current additives to vaccines that have been shown to harm children.
    Or is this just another of the paranoid, ignorant delusions that you have been infected by xtongue) from the crazy web sites that you get your information from?
    First asked 2 July 2013 - 104 days and counting.
23. Clayton Moore: Does ASD have the same symptoms as mercury or lead poisoning?
    (they do not as anyone who can read cane find out)
    First asked 18 July 2013 - 90 days and counting.
24. Clayton Moore: do you have the fantasy that vaccines contain lead?
    First asked 18 July 2013 - 90 days and counting.
25. Clayton Moore: Do you think that autism is an autoimmune disease?
    First asked 19 July 2013 - 89 days and counting.
26. Clayton Moore,
    What is your evidence that the CDC is in "minionship to drug and vaccine companies"?
    First asked 26 July 2013 - 86 days and counting.
27. Clayton Moore: Do you not know that vaccines have side-effects?
    First asked 16 September 2013 - 28 days and counting.
    That is the only reason that I can see why you are rather insanely trying to list every person in the world that has ever had a vaccine side-effect !
28. Clayton Moore
    What is your evidence that only vaccines "are destabilizing millions of years of human evolution"?
    First asked 17 September 2013. 27 days and counting.
    It is almost as you are unaware that modern agriculture, civil works (sewers, etc.), medicine, etc. exist!
    Clayton Moore: For that matter what does "destabilizing" mean in evolutionary terms? Evolution almost by definition is not stable!
29. Clayton Moore: What is your evidence that this paper is "fabricated propaganda"?
    First asked 17 September 2013. 27 days and counting.
30. Clayton Moore: What was the actual medical cause of Christina Richelle Tarsell's death?
    First asked 23 September 2013 - 21 days and counting.
    So far you are just parroting a web site where the parents mourning the tragedy of an undetermined cause of death are desperately fantasizing a cause for that death.
31. Clayton Moore, can you recognize your citation of an ignorant and paranoiac person?
    First asked 1 October 2013: 13 days and counting.

The latest insanity is:

• Thinking that vaccines can "destabilize" evolution.
• Insulting the father of a child and the judge in a trial about vaccination: The father and judge are idiots according to Clayton Moore.
  This is doubly insane since Clayton Moore has stated before that he is not against vaccination.

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/asthma/what-causes-asthma.php

The above is idiocy.

The above link definitely is idiocy, Clayton Moore, since it is about what causes asthma and does not mention

• evolution.
• the MMR vaccine.

Vaccines are the likely cause of the onslaught of asthma in children.

That is a lie, Clayton Moore.
What Causes Asthma? does not mention vaccines.

You still have not answered:
Clayton Moore, Are you intelligent enough to cite the science that vaccines can cause asthma?
First asked 30th April 2013 - 165 days and counting

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-are-asthma-rates-soaring
the body pounces on harmless particles—such as dust and ragweed
Isn't that exactly what vaccines cause the body to do when the vaccine's "virus" is encountered?

Isn't this a good demonstration of your ignorance, Clayton Moore ?
Viruses are not harmless particles—such as dust and ragweed. They are cell killing machines.
Vaccines like surviving natural exposure to the virus (if you do survive and are not harmed!) prepare the body of recognize and fight the virus.

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore is back spouting his brand of non-scientific woo so let us look at some science:
Really? The Claim: The Flu Shot Can Worsen Asthma

But new research published in the Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, which reviewed data from numerous randomized trials involving both children and adults with asthma, suggests that the flu shot does not worsen asthma.
The researchers uncovered some conflicting findings, and over all they could not determine whether the vaccine protected against asthma attacks in people who do contract the flu. But the best evidence, they concluded, showed that the vaccine itself does not provoke exacerbations of asthma in people ages 3 years and older. The report did not address the question in younger children.

MMR vaccine reduces risk of asthma

It's has been known for a while that, contrary to what you might expect, having measles in childhood reduces the risk of asthma later in life. There have been claims, however, that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine has the opposite effect to the wild measles virus.

Now a huge study in Denmark, based on records of 800,000 children, has demolished such notions. The researchers found that MMR-vaccinated children were 25% less likely to be hospitalised with asthma than non-vaccinated children, and were also prescribed fewer courses of anti-asthma medicine.

Childhood vaccinations and risk of asthma (2002)

CONCLUSION:
There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.

Infant vaccinations and childhood asthma among full-term infants (2004)

CONCLUSIONS:
Our findings do not support concerns that vaccines are associated with increased risk of asthma but confirm that frequency of infant wheezing is associated with childhood asthma

Routine vaccination against pertussis and the risk of childhood asthma: a population-based cohort study (2009)

CONCLUSION:
This study provides no evidence of an association between vaccination against pertussis in infancy and an increased risk of later wheeze or asthma and does not support claims that vaccination against pertussis might significantly increase the risk of childhood asthma

A case-control study of risk factors for asthma in New Zealand children (2001)

There was no significant association between having polio vaccination (OR=2.48, 95% CI 0.83-7.41), hepatitis B vaccination (OR=0.66, 95% CI 0.42-1.04) or measles/mumps/rubella vaccination (OR=1.43, 95% CI 0.85-2.41) and asthma.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study has confirmed the associations of family history and lower socio-economic status with current asthma in 7-9 year old children. The role of vaccinations requires further research.

Asthma and vaccination history in a young adult cohort (2004)

RESULTS:
There was no significant association observed for subjects diagnosed with asthma who had received measles or MMR vaccinations compared with those who did not receive measles or MMR vaccinations (RR 1.33, 95% CI 0.98-1.80). Non-significant associations were also observed for OPV and hepatitis B vaccinations (RR 3.27, 95% CI 0.50-21.3 and RR 1.08, 95% CI 0.83-1.41, respectively). However, subjects reporting full immunisation were found to be at higher risk to asthma (RR 1.52, 95% CI 1.09-2.11) but not atopy.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our results show relatively weak support for the hypothesis that childhood vaccinations may lead to increased risk of asthma, but caution is advised due to possible recall bias