Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[Delphic Oracle]

All this supposed consternation about the language use is farce, anyways.

We moderate our speech for context all day long.

If someone asks for you to identify yourself in person, you say "I am..." but if on the phone you say "this is..." and numerous other changes that would produce confusion or comical effect if tried in the other context.

I dare say your "out drinking with buddies" vernacular is different than what you use in the conference room at work or while discussing your father's declining health with your mom and the doctor.

So it all boils down to making everyday subconscious decisions seem like some terrible burden and violation of our blessed "freedumbs."

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Already suggested, but worth reiterating - describing "mis-gendering" (presumably wilful) as "violence" could be intended as a pre-emptive rationalisation (and perhaps legal defence) for actual, physical violence committed by members of this "community" in response to it (unthinkable as that might seem from the "just be kind" rainbo brigade).

 

[Thermal]

All this supposed consternation about the language use is farce, anyways.

We moderate our speech for context all day long.

If someone asks for you to identify yourself in person, you say "I am..." but if on the phone you say "this is..." and numerous other changes that would produce confusion or comical effect if tried in the other context.

I dare say your "out drinking with buddies" vernacular is different than what you use in the conference room at work or while discussing your father's declining health with your mom and the doctor.

So it all boils down to making everyday subconscious decisions seem like some terrible burden and violation of our blessed "freedumbs."

Moderating speech in context is a far cry from oddball introductions about how you view your sex role, especially if it is unambiguous. "hi I'm Thermal, and I am totally a dude" is just a socially stunted kind of intro.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I was against the notion of "ze" until I realized it would make everyone sound like they're speaking in an outrageous Stage French accent. Mon dieu! How can anyone rezist zis? Ze would 'ave a 'eart of stone to not talk like zat, given le opportunitee! Sacre bleu, etc.

 

[gnome]

I thought I mentioned it? Maybe another thread.

I don't see the point for gender ID as anything but a vague feeling about how you think you should act or be, relative to your sex. Not much more useful than a Capricorn's alleged personality traits. Almost entirely objectively meaningless. It annoys me when it gets slipped in as the equivalent of sex when convenient, then immediately backpedals to "well it's complicated" when challenged or clarification requested.

I'm not going to contradict your opinion on the usefulness of gender terms, but I'll ask you to explore the thought further. Let's suppose we were to abandon the use of pronouns to refer to gender, for better or worse, and limit it to referring to a person's sex. Then I ask, what purposes does it serve? That's not rhetorical: I want to consider how it aids communication to almost always refer to people's sex when it's known.

I'll start, because I can think of one reason already: It can clue someone in as to whether the person being spoken of might be in their dating pool. If an acquaintance says, "Oh, my friend is dating again after her breakup last spring." and I'm single and compatibly oriented, or know someone who is, that might lead to a connection. I'm not ridiculing that, it is socially convenient and relevant to have that information about someone's sex without directly asking.

Are there any other situations where this is helpful?

 

[Hercules56]

Already suggested, but worth reiterating - describing "mis-gendering" (presumably wilful) as "violence" could be intended as a pre-emptive rationalisation (and perhaps legal defence) for actual, physical violence committed by members of this "community" in response to it (unthinkable as that might seem from the "just be kind" rainbo brigade).

That is what the writer in Psychology Today said.

 

[lobosrul5]

That is what the writer in Psychology Today said.

Link? My apologies if I missed it upthread.

 

[Trausti]

 

[Thermal]

I'm not going to contradict your opinion on the usefulness of gender terms, but I'll ask you to explore the thought further. Let's suppose we were to abandon the use of pronouns to refer to gender, for better or worse, and limit it to referring to a person's sex. Then I ask, what purposes does it serve? That's not rhetorical: I want to consider how it aids communication to almost always refer to people's sex when it's known.

I'll start, because I can think of one reason already: It can clue someone in as to whether the person being spoken of might be in their dating pool. If an acquaintance says, "Oh, my friend is dating again after her breakup last spring." and I'm single and compatibly oriented, or know someone who is, that might lead to a connection. I'm not ridiculing that, it is socially convenient and relevant to have that information about someone's sex without directly asking.

Are there any other situations where this is helpful?

Fair points and fair question. I think that when speaking in a small group, he and she can quickly and conveniently clarify who is being referred to (half the time anyway), or if the person being referred to is the only one of that sex, it's a gimme.

Basically, if we were building a language from scratch, we would go gender neutral. It just makes sense. But it's more the reasoning behind the gender neutral pronouns in the OP that is rubbing me the wrong way, kind of like that while I agree murder is bad, I don't agree that it is because God said so.

The article is clear: never assume gender. I think that's making the leap from well-meaning to silly. You can guess someone's gender accurately, based on existing social cues, almost all the time. There is a smallish percentage of ambiguous people. So ok, we always have edge cases. But that doesn't seem to warrant literally lying, and claiming the cheerleader babe in front of you is so sexually inscrutable that you think they could just as well be a guy and you request clarification.

I mean, is the goofiness of pretending that we don't generally understand who is a guy or gal by appearances really where we start reinventing the language wheel? Again, it's like saying "I'm Thermal and I'm totes a burly butch boy" as a greeting. That's not a greeting so much as creepy. And that's what third person pronouns announcement feels like.

 

[Hercules56]

Link? My apologies if I missed it upthread.

Sigh, cant find it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, refusing a courtesy that won't cost you anything is also information rich communication.

On the other hand... trying to normalize "Hi I'm Cloud, I use ze/zir pronouns, and I identify as a pansexual otherkin" is both absurd and far more information than is needed in courteous conversation. They could have stopped at "Hi I'm Cloud" and it would have been just fine.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I almost want to go to a college campus and randomly ask students on video "hi, what's your name?".

See how many of them declare their name AND their preferred pronoun.

Side bet: At least 70% of the ones with hair colors that do not occur in nature will give you their preferred pronouns. Less than 10% of those with hair colors that are found in chemically unaltered humans will do so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, a short term silly fad that has been going since at least the 14th century.

A fad that has failed to gain ground for several centuries. What an amazing success story!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Says who?

Says me, for the following reasons:

1) We're on an internet forum, and we're all effectively anonymous. What gender identity you claim is 100% irrelevant to anything we talk about. It cannot be verified, and like anything else any of us write, it could be 100% fictional and there's no way to know.

2) In 99% of situations, nobody cares. How I feel about myself inside my brain doesn't impact anybody else except maybe my parents and my spouse. I guarantee that the only strangers who pretend to care are those that see you as a tool to be used in their crusade.

3) For most of the people you interact with, they can tell whether you're male or female. If you're announcing pronouns in opposition to that, it's obnoxious because you're demanding that everyone else grant primacy in their own minds to your subjective view of yourself. If you're announcing pronouns that are in concordance with your sex, it's obnoxious because we have already figured that out.

And finally...

4) It's pretty much akin to going around screaming in people's faces "I'm a progressive liberal and if you're not also a progressive liberal then you're a hateful bigoted fascist!" complete with flying droplets of spittle.

 

[arthwollipot]

On the other hand... trying to normalize "Hi I'm Cloud, I use ze/zir pronouns, and I identify as a pansexual otherkin" is both absurd and far more information than is needed in courteous conversation. They could have stopped at "Hi I'm Cloud" and it would have been just fine.

No-one's asking anybody to state their sexual orientation. "Hi, I'm Cloud, pronouns ze/zir, how are you?" is quite sufficient.

 

[Trausti]

No-one's asking anybody to state their sexual orientation. "Hi, I'm Cloud, pronouns ze/zir, how are you?" is quite sufficient.

There’s like 8 billion people. I gotta remember all their pronouns?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Along with everyone having their own subjective idea of what their gender is, many people have their own subjective idea of what other people's gender is.

Equally weird is "Hi Bob, even though we just met and I don't know jack **** about you, I'm going to talk about you to other people in a way that entirely invalidates some aspect of your identity."

Sure, sure, and of course, you would NEVER EVER talk about someone in a way that contradicts their subjective view of themselves. I'm sure you've never bad-mouthed anyone at all. I'm sure you've never even said "Gee, Tom thinks they're a good cook, but that chicken was awful", right? Tom identifies as a good cook, after all, and you know it. So of course, all you would ever say is "Tom's chicken is the best!"... right? RIGHT??????

 

[Emily's Cat]

I dare say your "out drinking with buddies" vernacular is different than what you use in the conference room at work or while discussing your father's declining health with your mom and the doctor.

Uh huh. But now we're being asked to ALWAYS use another person's preferred language... even when we're out drinking with the buddies or talking about our parent's health.

Do you see the difference here?

 

[angrysoba]

Side bet: At least 70% of the ones with hair colors that do not occur in nature will give you their preferred pronouns. Less than 10% of those with hair colors that are found in chemically unaltered humans will do so.

As it happens, I teach at a university (two in fact), so I have the experience of talking to numerous students with hair colours “not found in nature” (oh the humanity!), and none of the ones I have spoken to have ever announced their pronouns. It probably makes a difference that these universities are in Japan, of course, so the only thing I have to worry about is the complete social breakdown caused by almost 100% of them enjoying anime ( )

 

[Emily's Cat]

As it happens, I teach at a university (two in fact), so I have the experience of talking to numerous students with hair colours “not found in nature” (oh the humanity!), and none of the ones I have spoken to have ever announced their pronouns. It probably makes a difference that these universities are in Japan, of course, so the only thing I have to worry about is the complete social breakdown caused by almost 100% of them enjoying anime ( )

That's a fair callout. I should have specified a US university.