Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[Steve]

The Australian singer/songwriter G Flip identifies as nonbinary. In the hypothetical situation where you might be discussing G Flip's music with someone else, what pronouns would you use?

If you know about G Flip and their music, you probably know what pronouns they use. You don't have to know them personally. But as a fan of their music, it's one of many things that you might find out about them. An aspect of their character, their personality, like the fact that they're from Melbourne, or that they premiered their first track on Triple J in 2018. One of those little facts that you happen to know about someone. I'll bet there are people that you know some things about, despite not knowing them personally. This is just another of those.

Are the Gender Gendarmes going to break down your door and haul you off to Gender Gaol if you get it wrong? No. But that's no reason to be inaccurate.

I picked this one example out of Wikipedia's big list of nonbinary celebrities because they happen to be Australian. I'm not familiar with their music (but perhaps I should be). I could have picked any one of plenty of others.

And, just as an aside, I used the singular they/them pronoun several times in the paragraph above, and at no time was it unclear who I was referring to. So there's that argument dealt with too.

This person is unknown to me. But I live under no illusion that, in the very unlikely chance I may find myself in a discussion about them other than here and now, the pronouns I use would have any impact whatsoever on G Flip or any person that I know. Just another case where the pronouns used are trivially unimportant.

 

[Steve]

Several situations have been presented in this and other threads where you might use a person's pronoun in their presence.

It's a long thread and I guessed I missed them. A repost of an example would be appreciated because I am not going to read the whole thread to find them.

 

[jimbob]

For the hard of thinking, there is a thread about whether transwomen are women. This thread is not it.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob

 

[Thermal]

It's a long thread and I guessed I missed them. A repost of an example would be appreciated because I am not going to read the whole thread to find them.

Introducing someone: "This is Jehoshaphat. He is my Spirit Guide. You might have read his seminal work "Entertain Zirs Delusions'?

On my job site a couple days ago:

Thermal: "Hey numbnuts! This plumber over here needs you to move a floor joist out of the way"
Numbnuts: "**** him. He can move it himself"
Thermal: No **** you. Move the joist for him before I skull **** you"
Electrician piping in: "I got $20 on Thermal. His wife hasn't been giving him any lately and he's rammy"
Numbnuts:"He ain't doing ****. **** him".
Plumber: "I'm just trying to get my work done man"

 

[dirtywick]

hopefully you guys find a way to relieve all that sexual tension

 

[Hercules56]

Lets all agree that using the wrong pronoun, even repeatedly, is not an act of physical violence aka assault.

Personally its the only kind of violence I really care about.

 

[varwoche]

My thinking about this is abstract, because I barely interact with people outside my immediate circle, and when I do there aren't pronouns in play. (One-on-one conversations.) Given this limited, abstract perspective...

I won't use pronouns (or adjectives) that I view as counter-factual. I'm not referring to Rachel Dolezal as black (or trans-racial). I'm not referring to the guy on Whidbey Island who had metal whiskers implanted as a cat. And I'm not referring to men as women and vice versa.

Thinking back to business meetings and the like, I have no problem at all referring to people as they. I'd try to use they all the time though, because I'd worry about it standing out situationally, and making someone feel uncomfortable as a result. If they is insufficient for someone, oh well.

The concept of non-binary labeling impresses me as binary thinking. That is, I think that everyone is on a non-binary spectrum.

 

[Upchurch]

Lets all agree that using the wrong pronoun, even repeatedly, is not an act of physical violence aka assault.

Seeing how no one claimed it was, I don’t see that as a problem.

 

[sarge]

We seem to be getting off the topic of "wrong pronoun=violence?".

Because it’s been settled. Words can constitute violence and an assault.

 

[Hercules56]

Because it’s been settled. Words can constitute violence and an assault.

Only in one state. And that law looks very fishy.

 

[arthwollipot]

Lets all agree that using the wrong pronoun, even repeatedly, is not an act of physical violence aka assault.

Personally its the only kind of violence I really care about.

By definition, spoken words are not physical violence. But as has been repeatedly pointed out, it is not the only kind of violence that can harm people.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's only 37 pages of circling the same defintion of "violence", let's see if we can get another 37 with the same lack of progress! I have faith in you guys and girls and theys! Thou canst do it!

 

[arthwollipot]

Edited by jimbob: 

quote of subsequently moderated content

Well, as I have said before, they're not "preferred". They are just right, or they are wrong.

I should mention here that pronouns aren't a big issue for some trans people, who thus don't care whether you're using the right or the wrong ones. Those people exist, so it shouldn't be assumed that it's important to everybody.

 

[sarge]

Only in one state. And that law looks very fishy.

In the whole of the federal government, and your grasp of legal matters doesn’t seem to be sufficient to judge what laws might be ‘fishy’.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, the gist of this thread is to do your best and try to follow Wharton’s Law.

Wharton's rule is a legal doctrine that states that an agreement by two or more people to commit a particular crime cannot be prosecuted as a conspiracy if the crime could not be committed except by the actual number of participants involved.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think Upchurch means Wheaton's Law - "Don't be a dick".

 

[theprestige]

By definition, spoken words are not physical violence. But as has been repeatedly pointed out, it is not the only kind of violence that can harm people.

It's been claimed.

The closest it's come to being pointed out is the observation that some people are suicidal.

But incitement to physical violence is not itself violence.

And nobody has claimed that casual misgendering is an incitement to suicide.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What "burden"? How is it a "burden" on you to use correct pronouns?

It's a burden because it is placing an obligation on other people. Specifically, it places on obligation on how other people are expected to think.

Telling someone your preferred pronouns is effectively saying "I want you to think of me as X". It's an attempt to override another person's perceptions, and to place demands on their brains.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Every single human on the planet is a "they". YOU are "they" to me, irrespective of your sex or what you think about your gender inside your own head.

 

[arthwollipot]

I don't believe that I need to unpack much here to demonstrate that your reply was...let's say it didn't clarify anything. You reassert that Flip is non-binary, and that I am wrong. Do you understand at some level that you are not actually communicating anything by reasserting bald claims?

What else would you like me to say? G Flip is nonbinary. That is a fact. They are identified as such on their Wikipedia page. They came out as nonbinary on their Instagram in 2021. It was reported in the mainstream media. How much more evidence do you need of this? Want an interview? Here you go. Here's a brief extract:

"I've got a lot of messages [about me being non-binary], because my name has been in quite a few headlines, especially out in the US," they explain.

"Whether it's people messaging me wanting to further educate themselves to educate their children, or I've copped a lot of hate as well — people telling me that I'm not non-binary, that 'You're a girl, you've got a vagina'.

"A lot of hurtful things! So it felt like now is a good time to put the song [Waste Of Space - added by me] out... to help further educate the world on what being non-binary is."

Growing up, the musician rarely saw any non-binary visibility or representation in the media. They now hope to be the role model for other young people that they so desperately needed years ago.

How's that dollar going?

But to you...holy ****, stop the presses. This **** is like super duper important to you. That's the more obvious question, innit? Why are you worried about a third party reference term not jibing with the subjects internal life?

Lol. How much effort do you think I'm expending on this? It's an argument on the internet. I have a nonbinary child. I have close relationships with other nonbinary and transgender people, and I look out for their interests. And that includes making people aware that using the correct pronoun is the correct and polite thing to do. And honestly, you seem to be getting more upset about this than I am.

If you are referring to someone with blonde hair, do you stop and check with them first, to make sure it's not dyed? Check if the carpet matches the drapes? Ask if they feel like a brunette on the inside? No, you say "that blonde over there". The descriptor is chosen by the visual cue, not the inner life.

And that has exactly what to do with gender identity? Nothing. That has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity. Or pronouns.

Now what the hell are you talking about? Is this a music review thread now? You brought them up as an example of a non binary celebrity, chosen because they were a 'Strayan, so in the context of this thread, of course we are referring to their sex and gender more than a ******* musical review.

You seem to be fixated on their appearance, and the idea that how they presented was more important than anything else. I used their music as a proxy for literally everything else significant about the person. All you seem to be concerned with is whether they look female.