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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

arthwollipot said:
No-one's asking anybody to state their sexual orientation. "Hi, I'm Cloud, pronouns ze/zir, how are you?" is quite sufficient.
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Does that come with Cloud's assumption that, having met Cloud, I am now expected, or likely, to discuss Cloud with another party? Because I would never find an opportunity to use such pronouns when talking directly to Cloud.
 
Thermal said:
Christ, I don't remember if I had breakfast this morning. And things walking on two legs are "dude", and on four "good boy". I'm not going to fare well in this millennium.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you probably remember the names of your friends and family. That's all that really matters.
 
arthwollipot said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you probably remember the names of your friends and family. That's all that really matters.
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But the gist of this thread is that it is important to remember the stated preferred pronouns of casual acquaintances and relative strangers. Does it matter more that you remember their pronouns than their names?
 
Steve said:
But the gist of this thread is that it is important to remember the stated preferred pronouns of casual acquaintances and relative strangers. Does it matter more that you remember their pronouns than their names?
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No, the gist of this thread is to do your best and try to follow Wharton’s Law.
 
Steve said:
But the gist of this thread is that it is important to remember the stated preferred pronouns of casual acquaintances and relative strangers. Does it matter more that you remember their pronouns than their names?
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No, it matters just the same. And you'll get a stranger's pronoun wrong just as often as you'll get their name wrong. Deal with it the same way - apologise, correct yourself, and move on.

I'm not sure why this is difficult.
 
arthwollipot said:
No, it matters just the same. And you'll get a stranger's pronoun wrong just as often as you'll get their name wrong. Deal with it the same way - apologise, correct yourself, and move on.
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A scenario which will never take place. As I have said a number of times, neither I nor anyone else will get a person's pronoun(s) wrong when speaking directly to them. The only pronoun used when referring to the person I am speaking with is you, which has no gender connotations at all. It is much more likely that you will use their actual name in such discussions - I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that"
 
Upchurch said:
Well, “try your best” basically means what arthwollipot said, and “Wheaton’s Law” is a nicer way of saying, “don’t be a dick.”
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Well there are quite likely more than a few people in this thread who would consider me to be a dick, because strangers and casual acquaintances, in fact most of the people in this world, are quite unimportant to me. I rarely remember names until I have encountered a person several times. And I suspect, should I ever encounter a situation where pronouns are announced, my memory of them will be similarly poor. I do not go out of my way to antagonize or aggravate anyone, I just don't care. And I am quite content with the reciprocal that the vast majority of people couldn't care less about me.

I reiterate what I posted upthread that in any scenario where I would be associating with a person on an ongoing basis I would be quite content to learn, remember, and use whatever pronouns (and name) they would like. It just isn't going to happen for casual encounters.

I guess this is in part what makes this thread interesting to me. That things about strangers that to me are trivially unimportant matter so much to some other people. And that there are people in this world who think that what is important to them should be important to everyone.
 
Steve said:
A scenario which will never take place. As I have said a number of times, neither I nor anyone else will get a person's pronoun(s) wrong when speaking directly to them. The only pronoun used when referring to the person I am speaking with is you, which has no gender connotations at all. It is much more likely that you will use their actual name in such discussions - I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that"
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Several situations have been presented in this and other threads where you might use a person's pronoun in their presence.
 
Steve said:
I guess this is in part what makes this thread interesting to me. That things about strangers that to me are trivially unimportant matter so much to some other people. And that there are people in this world who think that what is important to them should be important to everyone.
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The Australian singer/songwriter G Flip identifies as nonbinary. In the hypothetical situation where you might be discussing G Flip's music with someone else, what pronouns would you use?

If you know about G Flip and their music, you probably know what pronouns they use. You don't have to know them personally. But as a fan of their music, it's one of many things that you might find out about them. An aspect of their character, their personality, like the fact that they're from Melbourne, or that they premiered their first track on Triple J in 2018. One of those little facts that you happen to know about someone. I'll bet there are people that you know some things about, despite not knowing them personally. This is just another of those.

Are the Gender Gendarmes going to break down your door and haul you off to Gender Gaol if you get it wrong? No. But that's no reason to be inaccurate.

I picked this one example out of Wikipedia's big list of nonbinary celebrities because they happen to be Australian. I'm not familiar with their music (but perhaps I should be). I could have picked any one of plenty of others.

And, just as an aside, I used the singular they/them pronoun several times in the paragraph above, and at no time was it unclear who I was referring to. So there's that argument dealt with too.
 
arthwollipot said:
The Australian singer/songwriter G Flip identifies as nonbinary. In the hypothetical situation where you might be discussing G Flip's music with someone else, what pronouns would you use?
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Never heard of G Flip, so looked at their pics. That's a woman, in entirely conventional female presentation, right down to eyeshadow. I'd call them a she without reservation. Because they fully present as a woman

If you know about G Flip and their music, you probably know what pronouns they use. You don't have to know them personally. But as a fan of their music, it's one of many things that you might find out about them. An aspect of their character, their personality, like the fact that they're from Melbourne, or that they premiered their first track on Triple J in 2018. One of those little facts that you happen to know about someone. I'll bet there are people that you know some things about, despite not knowing them personally. This is just another of those.
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Right. Just like she is female. So to those of us who use she/he as sex identifiers, G Flip is a she.

Are the Gender Gendarmes going to break down your door and haul you off to Gender Gaol if you get it wrong? No. But that's no reason to be inaccurate.

I picked this one example out of Wikipedia's big list of nonbinary celebrities because they happen to be Australian. I'm not familiar with their music (but perhaps I should be). I could have picked any one of plenty of others.
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I only recognized two names on that list: Miley Cyrus and Prince, both of whom presented entirely according to their sex. It's why this whole non-binary thing gets frustrating. They present as entirely gender conforming, then throw up jazz hands and say "LOL I'm totally not exactly what I spend time and effort presenting as!" They present as their born sex. S/he is used to describe someone born that sex. It's not a gendered term.

Gender again. It started out meaning sex roles, or how an individual perceived themselves. Ok, fine. But when is subtlety started sliding over to be interchangable with sex, we start having problems.

And, just as an aside, I used the singular they/them pronoun several times in the paragraph above, and at no time was it unclear who I was referring to. So there's that argument dealt with too.
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You referred to only one person, so you could have referred to them as wah-hoos and it would have been clear who you were referring to. Dealt with, indeed.
 
Thermal said:
Never heard of G Flip, so looked at their pics. That's a woman, in entirely conventional female presentation, right down to eyeshadow. I'd call them a she without reservation. Because they fully present as a woman

Right. Just like she is female. So to those of us who use she/he as sex identifiers, G Flip is a she.
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Okay, thanks for being so forthright. You are entirely wrong. G Flip is nonbinary and uses the pronouns they/them. You would be equally wrong if you called them by the wrong name.

Presentation is not gender.
 
Thermal said:
I only recognized two names on that list: Miley Cyrus and Prince, both of whom presented entirely according to their sex. It's why this whole non-binary thing gets frustrating. They present as entirely gender conforming, then throw up jazz hands and say "LOL I'm totally not exactly what I spend time and effort presenting as!" They present as their born sex. S/he is used to describe someone born that sex. It's not a gendered term.

Gender again. It started out meaning sex roles, or how an individual perceived themselves. Ok, fine. But when is subtlety started sliding over to be interchangable with sex, we start having problems.
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And that's why it's important to specify pronouns up front. Because you can't always tell from their presentation.
 
Here it is again for those who don't know the history:

"I identify as an attack helicopter" is a meme that originated in the toxic sections of Reddit and 4chan, as a deliberate and malicious attempt to mock and denigrate the concept of gender identification. It is a blunt and unsophisticated attempt at reductio ad absurdum, and is used exclusively by transphobic bigots to insult and marginalise transgender people.

It has absolutely nothing to do with pronouns.
 
arthwollipot said:
Here it is again for those who don't know the history:

"I identify as an attack helicopter" is a meme that originated in the toxic sections of Reddit and 4chan, as a deliberate and malicious attempt to mock and denigrate the concept of gender identification. It is a blunt and unsophisticated attempt at reductio ad absurdum, and is used exclusively by transphobic bigots to insult and marginalise transgender people.

It has absolutely nothing to do with pronouns.
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It has everything to do with pronouns. Telling people "your" pronouns, which you don't actually use but are telling others you expect them to use when referring to you, is just backdooring the issue. You have a subjective self image, but rather than face it squarely, it is torqued into "your preferred pronouns", rather than just saying you feel like an X, which throws a little too much light on the matter.
 
Thermal said:
See, this is exactly the problem. Your replies beg the question. What I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, there are no non-,binary people. Responding as you did...well...can you think of a string of words that could piss me off more?
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And what I'm saying is that regardless of what you can tell, nonbinary people do exist, their existence is valid, and they would like you to use their correct pronouns please.

"They don't exist because I've never seen them" is as good an argument against the existence of nonbinary people as it is against the existence of black swans.

Thermal said:
No. For the purposes of this thread, we are talking about the UC Boulder guidelines which instruct students to never assume gender, and introduce yourself with the words you want others to speak to others about you with. Which is nonsensical.
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Why is it nonsensical? You introduce yourself with your name, and you expect me to use that name, which when you get down to it is just a word that you want others to speak to others about you with. Why is it so different for pronouns?

Thermal said:
As a counterpoint, why is the burden put on me to validate the self image of others unquestioningly? Should they validate mine involuntarily? No reason to stop at gender. I have a colorful array of self image disorders to be placated.
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What "burden"? How is it a "burden" on you to use correct pronouns? Please explain this to me, because I'm really not seeing it. To me, it seems like the easiest thing ever, and the lowest of low-hanging fruit in the struggle for transgender rights. Trust me, there are much bigger issues here. Why not just do as people ask in this one very tiny way?

And for that matter, who is talking about anything other than gender? I'm glad you asked. People who don't like the idea of using other peoples' proper pronouns are the only ones who ever try to extend this idea beyond gender.
 
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