US Officials Declare Eastern Cougar Extinct

[William Parcher]

Shrike, did you read the 110 page review?

 

[Drewbot]

I think the main question is, with the advent of DNA sampling, was there any reason to label the Eastern cougar a different subspecies? Would the DNA findings show that the Eastern cougar is really no different than a W. cougar, or a Florida cougar?

 

[William Parcher]

I think the main question is, with the advent of DNA sampling, was there any reason to label the Eastern cougar a different subspecies? Would the DNA findings show that the Eastern cougar is really no different than a W. cougar, or a Florida cougar?

The genetics are inconsequential to the main issue and topic of the declaration. The 110-page review paper already addresses the conflicts and controversies of cougar taxonomy. It makes no difference if the "Eastern Cougar" is a valid subspecies, or not. The EC is not defined (and never ever was) by its genotype. It is defined by its historic breeding and population range. This creature has been documented since colonial times.

The Eastern Cougar was extirpated from its range. All attempts to locate any Eastern Cougars have failed. The end result of the most recent plan to evaluate the status of the animal has resulted in the conclusion that it is extinct.

Folks may not properly understand the situation if they don't actually read the 110 page review report.

 

[River]

There are definitely cougars in the south east. Maybe by extinct they meant, hard to find and rare. I think it was in 2008 someone shot one here in Georgia. I personally have seen tracks. (though it was about 4 years ago) I thought extinct meant none left alive. Kind of wonky they made such a declaration if you ask me.

 

[William Parcher]

No, extinct means extinct - not rare. You have to actually read the report to understand. The Florida subspecies is accounted-for in the report. That subspecies is not being confused with the Eastern Cougar defined in the report.

The declaration is fully grounded scientifically.

 

[William Parcher]

Read the report, River...

DNA testing documented that an adult male puma killed in Georgia in 2008 originated in Florida. Given substantial barriers to dispersal, it is highly unlikely that Florida panthers are dispersing with enough frequency out of Florida to establish populations in the Southeast (USFWS 2008); however, prey and habitat are available in Georgia to support a population (Belden and McCown 1996).

The Florida Cougar ("Florida Panther") is not the Eastern Cougar.

 

[leonAzul]

There are definitely cougars in the south east. Maybe by extinct they meant, hard to find and rare. I think it was in 2008 someone shot one here in Georgia. I personally have seen tracks. (though it was about 4 years ago) I thought extinct meant none left alive. Kind of wonky they made such a declaration if you ask me.

If it helps to clarify, think of the term "Eastern Cougar" as descriptive of an indigenous breeding stock that was once endemic to the eastern US. It has been nearly 80 years since there was any solid evidence of a sustainable breeding population of that specific lineage.

 

[Mister Agenda]

I doubt there are many lay people who, seeing a cougar in the wild, could tell at a glance (which is usually all they'll get) whether it was an Eastern Cougar or a Florida Panther (no sports jokes). Heck, even taxonomists sometimes have trouble with that one. If I was in Florida and saw one, I would assume it was a panther. In SC, I would wonder how a panther wound up loose in SC.

Oops, I must have skipped ahead, I now see the cougar/panther issue has already been addressed.

 

[The Shrike]

No, extinct means extinct - not rare.

Right, the eastern cougar is extinct. That does not mean there are no cougars today within the former distribution of the eastern cougar.

 

[Drewbot]

Right, the eastern cougar is extinct. That does not mean there are no cougars today within the former distribution of the eastern cougar.

Can an animal be deemed extinct, if it is determined that there was never any genetic reason for it to be classified as a distinct species?

For example, Eastern Cougar and Western Cougar are classified as distinct subspecies, for hundreds of years a cougar found E. of the Mississippi was labeled an Eastern Cougar. If it is found through DNA that there was never any basis for classifying the Eastern Cougar as a separate subspecies, what would be the process for eliminating that nomenclature from the classification? Would they declare the Eastern Cougar extinct? or would they simply say there never was an "Eastern Cougar" subspecies, it was always just a cougar, but found East of the Mississippi?

 

[William Parcher]

...for hundreds of years a cougar found E. of the Mississippi was labeled an Eastern Cougar.

Looks like you still haven't read the report. I said it's 110 pages, but 33 of those pages are just the reference list. So, let's call it a 77 page report.

 

[Dinwar]

Can an animal be deemed extinct, if it is determined that there was never any genetic reason for it to be classified as a distinct species?

No. Despite what the report says, extinction as the term is currently used applies solely to species. If the taxonomic classification is re-worked and the Eastern Couger is found to be a distinct population of another species at best it can be argued that a population was wiped out. And it really doesn't matter what the Department of Fish and Wildlife report says--extinction=species going away. If the species still exists, the species did not go extinct.

The EC is not defined (and never ever was) by its genotype. It is defined by its historic breeding and population range.

None of which matter in taxonomy. Or, rather, none of which matter in taxonomy sensu stricto; there are any number of cases where biologists and paleontologists have named a new species and been in error. But the original point still stands: Unless the Eastern Couger is classified as a distinct species it is impropper to refer to the loss of the Eastern Couger as an extinction. The species still exists, and can repopulate the area. Yes, it will be a different population, but if it's the same species the bruden is on the people saying that repopulation cannot work to demonstrate that there is substantial enough difference between the populations to make reintroduction not viable (this is not because the default is that reintroduction is viable, but rather because once it's established that the cougers are the same species it follows that they fill the same biological nitche and therefore the populations are similar enough to allow for viable reintroduction).

 

[River]

Read the report, River...



The Florida Cougar ("Florida Panther") is not the Eastern Cougar.

I'm too lazy to read a 77 page report right now, but I guess I need to at some point. The reason I made that comment is it seems there is little difference between the eastern and western cougar. (is there a genetical difference?) I would hope so if it is declared is subspecies. I'm quite curious now as to the origin of cougars in this state. (or pumas if you'd rather call them that) I don't really see many cougars crossing the Mississippi, so do they all originate from Florida? Where did the "eastern cougar" originate? If anyone has read the report, or has that information, I'm quite curious.

 

[Dinwar]

The reason I made that comment is it seems there is little difference between the eastern and western cougar. (is there a genetical difference?) I would hope so if it is declared is subspecies.

Taxonomy is full of redundancy.

 

[William Parcher]

I'm quite curious now as to the origin of cougars in this state. (or pumas if you'd rather call them that) I don't really see many cougars crossing the Mississippi, so do they all originate from Florida? Where did the "eastern cougar" originate? If anyone has read the report, or has that information, I'm quite curious.

I'll try to help. All cougars (pumas) everywhere originated from South America in prehistoric times. This was long before any humans inhabited North America.

When cougars began to be scientifically studied and classified the ones living and breeding in (what is now) Georgia were designated as Puma concolor coryi. That is is subspecies of cougar commonly known as "Florida Panther". It had a range including Florida and some surrounding area. Coryi is not the "Eastern Cougar" which was found further north.

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

Below is a map showing former and present cougar range. The dotted lines indicate the former ranges of subspecies. You can see that I have marked two of these subspecies as "Eastern Cougar" and "Florida Panther". The Eastern Cougar is extinct. The Florida Panther now is only located in an area of Florida which represents about 5% of its former range.

 

[William Parcher]

The reason I made that comment is it seems there is little difference between the eastern and western cougar. (is there a genetical difference?)

Some scientists who observed Eastern Cougar specimens found morphological differences in the pelage, skull and skeleton that made them distinct from other subspecies. Some scientists saw no differences.

Genetic testing on specimens has revealed Eastern to be quite similar to others. Some scientists say there is no meaningful difference. Some scientists argue that all cougars everywhere are the same species and that there should be no subspecies designations whatsoever. Others disagree.

 

[Dinwar]

All cougars (pumas) everywhere originated from South America in prehistoric times. This was long before any humans inhabited North America.

Got any specifics on the highlighted stuff?

Coryi is not the "Eastern Cougar" which was found further north.

But by your own statement it is the same species. Besides, what (other than breeding range, which for large predators like this is going to be a WAG at best) defines the subspecies?

The last wild breeding "Florida Panthers" in Georgia were long gone before you were born. Any cougars found in your state now would be wild roaming males from the Florida population, or escaped/released pets.

And since they're the same species (though admitedly different subspecies) the ecosystem shouldn't care too much about it.

The Eastern Cougar is extinct.

No. The Cougar is alive and well. It merely lost a subpopulation.

Some scientists who observed Eastern Cougar specimens found morphological differences in the pelage, skull and skeleton that made them distinct from other subspecies. Some scientists saw no differences.

Genetic testing on specimens has revealed Eastern to be quite similar to others. Some scientists say there is no meaningful difference. Some scientists argue that all cougars everywhere are the same species and that there should be no subspecies designations whatsoever. Others disagree.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Taxonomy. While normally I detest the biological species concept (in fact, I typically detest the species concept in general) in this case I'll give it a pass--if the cougars fill the same ecological niche and could interbreed (and given the obvious amount of genetic similarity I'd argue it's likely they interbred more than people thought) they're the same species, which means they're the same thing.

Let's put it this way: There are obvious differences between black humans and white humans. Obvious morphological differences, obvious genetic differences, etc. If white humans all died out, would you call it an extinction event? (I picked whites not because of any racial thing, but because it can be argued that whites are one population--there's actually far too much morphological diversity among blacks for me to be comfortable dealing with them as a single population.)

 

[William Parcher]

Got any specifics on the highlighted stuff?

Ooopsie. Another one who didn't read the report.

Your arguments are a waste of time. Biological and ecology sciences seem to be your enemy.

The Eastern Cougar is gone.
The Eastern Cougar is extinct.
The Eastern Cougar is extirpated.

 

[Dinwar]

Your arguments are a waste of time. Biological and ecology sciences seem to be your enemy.

HA!

The Eastern Cougar is gone.
The Eastern Cougar is extinct.
The Eastern Cougar is extirpated.

No. All of the evidence you've presented is that a subpopulation of cougars--a designation that's questionable at best--died out. If you want to call that an extinction event that's fine, have fun, but "extinction" refers to species, not subpopulations. And certainly not subpopulations of such questionable provenance.

I've raised several biological issues here that you've failed to address, not the least of which is your use of improper taxonomic terms and the definition of a species based on invalid criteria (range? SERIOUSLY? this amounts to a geographic species concept, something that only ammonite afficionados think is valid).

Again, if you want to say that the loss of a subspecies is an extinction, go for it. But what's the point? What does it mean? It's the removal of a small portion of the genetic variation of a species. It's the death of a population which could one day maybe have become a species. The real issue is the loss of a top predator, but given that there are examples of cougars given in this thread in that area it's unlikely that the niche will stay vacant for long. Or it'll be eliminated entirely by humans; that's always a possibility.

Of course, a discussion about ecology and the roll of top predators is obviously a waste of time. So is determining whether or not the criteria used for your colloquial designation are valid--because, you know, taxonomy isn't biology. Or something.

 

[Drewbot]

Despite Parchers claims that people are not reading the report, I still feel that the delisting was due mainly to taxonomic reasons, and not to population studies.

There are reasons given in the report that point to this.

Based on recent genetic analysis (Culver et al. 2000), the federally endangered eastern cougar=puma
Felis=Puma concolor couguar subspecies may no longer be a valid taxonomic entity (according to
Wilson and Reeder 2005 the nomenclature P. c. couguar now applies to all North American pumas).

They provide scenarios where the cougar could repopulate the eastern U.S.
Through Canada, through Minnesota to Michigan, etc...

Note this page, lists six subspecies of Puma. Only one of which exists in the United States.

Until the late 1980s, as many as 32 subspecies were recorded; however, a recent genetic study of mitochondrial DNA[15] found that many of these are too similar to be recognized as distinct at a molecular level. Following the research, the canonical Mammal Species of the World (3rd edition) recognizes six subspecies, five of which are solely found in Latin America:[1]

Argentine puma (Felis concolor cabrerae)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms hudsonii and puma (Marcelli, 1922);
Costa Rican Cougar (Felis concolor costaricensis)
Eastern South American cougar (Felis concolor anthonyi)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms acrocodia, borbensis, capricornensis, concolor (Pelzeln, 1883), greeni and nigra;
North American Cougar (Felis concolor couguar)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms arundivaga, aztecus, browni, californica, coryi, floridana, hippolestes, improcera, kaibabensis, mayensis, missoulensis, olympus, oregonensis, schorgeri, stanleyana, vancouverensis and youngi;
Northern South American cougar (Felis concolor concolor)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms bangsi, incarum, osgoodi, soasoaranna, sussuarana, soderstromii, suçuaçuara and wavula;
Southern South American puma (Felis concolor puma)
includes the previous subspecies and synonyms araucanus, concolor (Gay, 1847), patagonica, pearsoni and puma (Trouessart, 1904)
The status of the Florida panther, here collapsed into the North American Cougar, remains uncertain. It is still regularly listed as subspecies Felis concolor coryi in research works, including those directly concerned with its conservation.[17] Culver et al. themselves noted low microsatellite variation in the Florida panther, possibly due to inbreeding;[15] responding to the research, one conservation team suggests "the degree to which the scientific community has accepted the results of Culver et al. and the proposed change in taxonomy is not resolved at this time."[18]

http://pediaview.com/openpedia/Cougar#Naming_and_etymology

If current taxonomy does not specify a subspecies of "EASTERN COUGAR" there is no reason to keep it on the Endangered Species List.

(d) The factors considered in delisting a species are those in paragraph (c) of this section as they relate to the definitions of endangered or threatened species. Such removal must be supported by the best scientific and commercial data available to the Secretary after conducting a review of the status of the species. A species may be delisted only if such data substantiate that it is neither endangered nor threatened for one or more of the following reasons:

(1) Extinction. Unless all individuals of the listed species had been previously identified and located, and were later found to be extirpated from their previous range, a sufficient period of time must be allowed before delisting to indicate clearly that the species is extinct.

(2) Recovery. The principal goal of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Service is to return listed species to a point at which protection under the Act is no longer required. A species may be delisted on the basis of recovery only if the best scientific and commercial data available indicate that it is no longer endangered or threatened.

(3) Original data for classification in error. Subsequent investigations may show that the best scientific or commercial data available when the species was listed, or the interpretation of such data, were in error.

Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/424-factors-delisting-reclassifying-19895270#ixzz1GIfgirWb

I don't believe the entire species is extinct, therefore it is not correct to call the subspecies extinct, furthermore, current taxonomy does not identify separate north American subspecies. I believe the bolded part three is the correct reasoning for the delisting.